Don’t you mean it used to require 2 way comms before SERA overrode that?
Currently, applies above 3000ft amsl, it still consistent with SERA (sort of nationwide “IFR RMZ”)
It does not mean you need ceiling above 3000ft amsl to fly uncontrolled IFR in France in Golf…
Last week, I flew from Bagnoles, filed I-FPL called to check & open, departed with 10km vis & 900ft ceiling, called FIS at 3kft no answer, I only managed to get reception 20min later when above 5kft, I think FIS/ATC started my “IFR tracking” somewhere near Class A
I am not expecting to scud run under 1000ft base or find holes or aim for terrain “to stay VMC”, I personally treat myself and ground with lot of respect: I flew proper IFR departure, climbed on runway heading to safe altitude, I think lot of people who are IR rated tend to complicate their life with “remain VMC/VFR in Golf”, plot a straight-line fly aircraft on it to cruise altitude under IFR, it’s not rocket science, you can write a PhD to make it legal but it’s simple & safe !
Ibra wrote:
complicate their life with “remain VMC/VFR in Golf"
Well, if that is the clearance ATC delivers upon first contact, short of declaring “unable”, or pan pan, what are your choices?
I think that approach only works if you are not in contact with ATC.
ATC can’t give clearance in Golf once you are “away” from aerdromes 
The key problem with doing IFR departure from VFR airfield, is lost comms: if you have a solid answer to that all you need is plotting a straight line…
In other words, don’t go to land in Madrid or inside airspace on lost comms when IFR in Golf
Ibra wrote:
I think lot of people who are IR rated tend to complicate their life with “remain VMC/VFR in Golf”, plot a straight-line fly aircraft on it to cruise altitude under IFR, it’s not rocket science, you can write a PhD to make it legal but it’s simple & safe !
The problem is not Golf – it is rather the transition from Golf into controlled airspace where IFR traffic is flying legally. And yes, there have been near misses in such situations. Some years ago a Citation only missed a Cessna by 200m laterally at same altitude in class Echo. The citation Crew later reported they were in solid IMC while the Cessna pilot pretended he was VMC keeping the required cloud clearances…
In aviation it is not a choice to stay safe or legal – you should stay safe AND legal. To comply with this is particularly simple if it is about departure: If it can not be done safe and legal it should not be done at all.
@lionel the AIP requires 2 way communication with ATS for IFR flight, as Ibra has written.
You cannot compare Southend with LFFK they are at 2 different ends of the scale.
LFFK has no ATS service
Most of my IFR training took place in low visibility. Some 70% of my aproaches were to minima, with many ILS approaches consisting of a cloud break at around the 200ft mark although most cruising was above the cloud.
Many of my take offs were in the RVR around 400m and one or 2 were LVTO, ie below RVR400m. So obviously ot does depend where you train and who with.
I honestly do not understand Ibra’s arguments.
If you are taking off IFR from a field with an ATS service the plates will either give you the minimum RVR needed or it defaults to the RVR400m figure. If the ATS is AFIS they can not give you a clearance but they can contact an ATC to get you a clearance from a particular altitude or point and you will contact that ATC at that point for a further clearance. On the other hand AFIS might say take off at your discretion no known traffic CAS starts at 5000ft contact xxxx for entry. They know that you can change to the ATC at about 2000 ft or so. If you are in IMC you would normally stay within the protective boundary of the ATZ to climb to 2000ft or you would be climbing towards the nearest intersection on your flight plan.
If you are in IMC then by rights others should be in IMC also and be talking to either the controller you have been handed.to or the AFIS of the station you are just leaving. Generally, even in class G your next frequency will know you are coming. So in theory all should be safe but one cannot account for someone flying in IMC conditions not talking to anyone and without a working transponder.
In the event of a take off from a non towered field, you possibly have no 2 way communications especially on the ground and until you reach a certain altitude.
Yes you can still take off even at 7 runway markers. Ceilings need only be taken into account for the possibility of having to use the instrument procedure to land back on the runway in case of a “minor” problem. I understand now that in NCO there no necessity to file alternatives, so it is for the PIC to decide, as it would be with the need to make an emergency or forced landing, then of course all legal questions go out of the window.
So there you are sitting on the threshold of the 08 hard runway at LFFK. You have counted 7 runway markers, so you.are legal to take off. Straight ahead about 5NM there is a group of wind turbines. You can’t of course see them you only have 400m vis along the runway. As it is fog the ceiling is basically 0 you have no way of knowing when you might break out into clear sky, from a fog point of view.
You do know that if you climb to 1000ft on the downwind you’ll probably be able to talk to La Rochelle APP or FIS. If you’re track takes you north of the airfield your first contact would normally be with Nantes App or FIS but you probably are out of range with them until you reach 2000ft.
You will of course have a mode S transponder with altitude set. But at what altitude do you have to be to guarantee any of the 4 zone owners that surround LFFK on a particular day will see you.
I am not suggesting that in taking off under these conditions the PIC would have done anything illegal, although they could have.
It is for the PIC in many instances to set their own personal limitations. But I’m not sure that a forum like this with the wide range of experiences that make euroga a success, is a good place to encourage others to do things that some would consider reckless. For me its a bit like the AA encouraging drivers to hack down a foggy motorway at 80mph.
Ibra wrote:
No idea in general or in this accident, but how to fly IFR in Golf VFR airports using GA is a big missing item in ATO training: it’s done from 3km ILS runways with ATC or from VFR airfields with 50kft ceiling and 100km visibilityIt’s rare to find an IRI/IRE in ATO who fly IMC in Golf (in SEP) or IFR from VFR airfields, let alone teach one thing or two about it, the wisdom is no IFR unless ceiling is above MVA, or remain VMC on VFR scud run, or don’t fly
I think therefor it’s super important to find an IFR Instructor who has relevant GA experience (and takes an interest in it) in real IMC, with real operational experience in situations where maybe you were pushed a little bit more to get in (or out). In my view it is true for visibility, but also how to deal with icing etc… I’d rather learn from someone who has had real icing experience in small planes, real IMC experience in small planes than the usual CAT crew who have their SOP’s done up for them by the company etc…
even more so in twins where things like ceiling start to add a whole new layer of how to look at things (think N-1 type of operations) – if one engine goes do I have the operational performance needed to fly a SID, if I don’t then what? Take an airport like Annecy, any ceiling below 1500ft unless you create your own SID (in case you lose and engine) you wouldn’t take off. Having someone with real experience in ‘’our type’’ of planes teach you is critical in my view…
gallois wrote:
IFR in France requires 2 way communications with an ATS. Even in class G airspace. (Excepting lost comms and there are procedures for that)
Flying out of an unmanned field is permitted in France, but you might not achieve 2 way communication on until you reach a certain altitude, so you cannot be IFR at that point.
technically I think you’re right, but operationally to take Annecy LFLP as an example again you call Chambery LFLB on the phone on the groun (when ATC not on the field basically before 9AM) prior to take off to get an IFR clearance (of Course this is an IFR field with SID’s in place) who give you your clearance with a void if not airborne by (usually 10 mins) and you then passing through 3000ft contact LFLB tower with an active flight plan.
Peter wrote:
Is there a minimum cloudbase for a VFR departure in Austria? There will be a min visibility in general for VFR and it is probably 1500m, with the AD being able to specify a lower figure.
thought EASA was 1000ft vertical separation from clouds? so yes ceiling is above 1500ft minima no? as there is the 500ft above ground rule as well?
Well, this is from France and you can “fill your boots” there But it isn’t Austria.
The 500ft has an obvious exemption for takeoff or landing.
Does 1000ft cloud sep apply to < 3000ft and Class G?
Airports in Class D tend to have a min cloudbase of 1500ft (LFBZ was 1200ft at one time; I was stuck there in 1000-1100ft for a number of days, and nobody told me about SVFR 
). But this Austrian airport is Class G AFAIK.
I am not saying this departure wasn’t dumb, but it may have been legal.
Peter wrote:
Does 1000ft cloud sep apply to < 3000ft and Class G?
It’s country dependant in G and E – and would be in the Austrian AIP section GN3 I believe… In General above 3000ft and below 5000ft (and below 140kts) 5KM visibility and 1500m horizontally and 1000ft vertically (above) are considered ‘’good enough’’
