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Cessna P210 N731MT down at Hohenems LOIH

to the plain facts:

1.
loih is vfr only (small local airport without radar/tower control).
according to austrian legal visual flight rules 5km horizontal are required for takeoff or landing.

2.
check weather conditions on webcams this morning or in the picture here at 10:04.
the whole area, valley of rhein (rheintal), was in (thick) fog this morning (approx. vertical 300 – 600 feet).

3.
i happen to know background and circumstances closely and its again a call to learn from this
and teach it !!

Last Edited by cpt_om_sky at 11 Nov 22:37
Austria

Typical SOP for SEP is 1,000 feet and 3 km, basically on the principle to give you time to pick a field, MEP would be approach minima with a nominated take off alternate.

Oxford (EGTK), United Kingdom

Yes that was my understanding in ANO rules but under Part-NCO rules one is not legally require to factor engine failures in SEP when constructing IFR trajectories and the takeoff alternate is not required

Maybe CPL/IR ATO training is done under Part-CAT rules and due to commercial nature takeoff in Golf VMC (1.5km & 500ft) in SEP is already very problematic, let alone 400m & 50ft?

There is a logic in picking a field in engine failure events in SEP but I would not stretch it a lot, it would make ILS flying down to 200ft impractical as one can’t glide more than 1:20, IFR takeoff from Southend at 400m RVR impossible and flying cross-country en-route with less than 1000ft base & 3km very odd…

Last Edited by Ibra at 11 Nov 22:15
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

@Ibra you’ve lost me. Is 1.5km and a ceiling of 500ft VMC in the UK or is it 1.5km( or 30 secs of flight) out of the clouds and in sight of the surface VMC.?
Is 400m and 50ft VMC in the UK?
In many countries, France included, you can fly IFR in VMC but you can’t fly VFR in IMC (emergency excluded)
IFR in France requires 2 way communications with an ATS. Even in class G airspace. (Excepting lost comms and there are procedures for that)
Flying out of an unmanned field is permitted in France, but you might not achieve 2 way communication on until you reach a certain altitude, so you cannot be IFR at that point.
You might well be able to get a transponder code over the phone but as in a similar situation in the USA (I believe) you might well also be given a maintain VMC until XXX position or yyy altitude.
The fact that nobody might notice if you take off in thick fog until you reach that point is the decision of the PIC (after all s/he is unlikely to get caught). Unless of course you crash. Then the posts on this forum might well be saying it was a reckless thing to do, and debate the legality of what you have done.

France

Ignore 400m & 50ft, it applies to some UK IFR aerodromes like Southend

On France, assuming you have an enroute clearance on phone, how do you fly IFR if ceiling is 500ft and airways radio reception starts at 6000ft? do you need ceiling to be above radio reception MEA in TAF/ATIS? can you enter clouds in Golf at 4000ft?

If you can’t depart uncontrolled IFR straight in IMC, you depart IFR and remain VMC? how do you manage to fly above your MSA? how do you join MEA or MVA to get “IFR started” if clouds are in the way?

I suggest you simplify that thinking otherwise you end up flying an IFR scud run bellow your MSA forever

We can talk for ages about legalities, technicalities, shaming, or what forums pilots think but anyone who is IR rated and fly IFR while maintain VMC in Golf by flying low near the surface rather than climbing on top of clouds or above his safe altitude need some brain cells…

If there are clouds between the surface and your MVA/CAS base, you have to fly uncontrolled IFR in IMC at some point?

Last Edited by Ibra at 12 Nov 09:23
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ignore 400m & 50ft, it applies to some UK IFR aerodromes

Hmmmm? Never heard of such a thing.

Is there a minimum cloudbase for a VFR departure in Austria? There will be a min visibility in general for VFR and it is probably 1500m, with the AD being able to specify a lower figure.

And in Class G there is no possible clearance to be received. So if you have an IR, and meet the VFR vis minima, it is probably impossible to get busted for it. Yes it happened in the US but for other reasons.

But that’s not relevant to this accident. It seems obvious the vis alone was sub-VFR. Actually if it was like the webcam it was way below. Probably 200m. A good instrument pilot should be able to take off in that, but it leaves no margin for things like instrument failures.

Another discussion on low vis deps is here.

i happen to know background and circumstances closely and its again a call to learn from this
and teach it !!

@cpt_om_sky are you able to post any of what you know?

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I add Southend (I can add some grass strips but I will get kicked out of EuroGA)

That mention was not on UK aerodromes wx minima, I was pointing as the minima for SEP takeoff with engine failure, the ATO SOP is 3km & 1000ft, I doubt anyone does IR training with takeoff in Southend on 400m RVR, if you know anyone who can teach it I am interested …

Last Edited by Ibra at 12 Nov 09:30
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Sorry but the above makes no sense to me, gramatically or factually.

50ft???

IR training is done mostly as a VFR flight, so irrelevant to this whole discussion.

Better stick to the accident discussion.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

gallois wrote:

IFR in France requires 2 way communications with an ATS. Even in class G airspace.

Don’t you mean it used to require 2 way comms before SERA overrode that?

ELLX

@peter

regulations in austria are very clear:

vfr minimum visibility horizontal is 5 km.

there is no way to get out of loih ifr.

i know the area very well. i tried to reconstruct the flight on my fs2020.

from departure to impact probably 60 to 120 seconds.
climbing rate constant. speed at approx. 80

why the pilot turned right after take off or tried to circle back eastward at his flight level is the critical question.

Austria
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