Peter wrote:
But this Austrian airport is Class G AFAIK.I am not saying this departure wasn’t dumb, but it may have been legal.
What I know about airspace G in Austria is that for VFR they do require 5km visibility and out of clouds.
Switzerland knows a rule that if you can turn around, visibility in G can be 1.5 km minimum.
While 1.5 km but with a celing of 200 or 300 ft max can not totally be ruled out, it is almost impossible that 5km vis were present. Apart, a ceiling that low does not allow even scud running. 1000 ft AGL would be the minimum I’d consider half ways safe and for a plane with that speed, 5km is adequate. 1.5 km is more intended for helicopters or really slow planes.
It looks very much to me as if the intention was to take off and climb through the relatively thin IMC layer and continue VFR or take an IFR pickup later, probably in the area of Altenrhein or Friedrichshafen. While this is not quite legal, it is literally straightforward, take off on 05 and climb pretty much straight ahead or direct to E or NUNRI leads you right down the valley. With this rate of climb he should have been on top in 2-3 minutes. Only he turned almost immediately after lift off.
LFHNflightstudent wrote:
Does 1000ft cloud sep apply to < 3000ft and Class G?It’s country dependant in G and E – and would be in the Austrian AIP section GN3 I believe… In General above 3000ft and below 5000ft (and below 140kts) 5KM visibility and 1500m horizontally and 1000ft vertically (above) are considered ‘’good enough’’
It is not country dependent. In class G it does not apply below the highest of 3000’ AMSL and 1000’ AGL. In class E it always applies, regardless of level.
What is country dependent is the minimum required flight visibiity in class G below the highest of 3000’ AMSL and 1000’ AGL. SERA states 5 km, but also allows individual countries to – subject to certain conditions – lower this to not less than 1500 m (airplanes) or 800 m (helicopters).
(SERA.5001)
So, what are the requirements for Austria?
The webcam looks like “sky obscured” or perhaps NSC if you can see blue sky directly above..
EDIT: didn’t spot the post above
regulations in austria are very clear:
vfr minimum visibility horizontal is 5 km.
there is no way to get out of loih ifr.
In that case, how is it possible to do such a departure, given that there are obviously webcams, and there is usually somebody in GA who will report it to the CAA, who can then get the webcam data. Any airfield will have a number of busybodies who do this stuff for fun. The normal pilot of the P210 is on the forum but hasn’t posted for a couple of years, but apparently has been active on some US sites today. He appears to be very well known, so he would IMHO have been quite interested to know that somebody who rents the plane has been doing this sort of stuff. If it was my plane, I would clamp down on this immediately, not least due to the ambiguity in the “operator” liability.
initially there have been conflicting reports
wether the pilot flew out northward (05)
our southward (23).
i could verify that he flew out 23
due to flight restrictions over the city of dornbirn (to the north).
so he had to take a turn to the right and west of about 180 degrees
to go to his right course to memmingen.
but he did a turn of about 270 degrees.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
While this is not quite legal, it is literally straightforward,
In my opinion there are far too many accident discussions where people argue: yes, it is not quite legal (aka: “Illegal”) but ok/straightforward/safe/…
The reason why this discussion comes up so often is, that so often a pilot colleague of us again has tragically proven it is not safe. Therefore there is a good reason why it’s illegal!
Was the pilot instrument rated?
Only he turned almost immediately after lift off.
My guess he was flying low tight VFR circuit in IMC (noise or local constraints, maybe not IR rated or things like FR24 tracks 
) or he had a problem and wanted to return back quickly
If he did an IFR departure (legal or illegal in Austia, we can talk for ages), like the one you do on SID or OMNI, he can’t turn or circle bellow 400ft agl and one rarely take a heading untill past safe altitudes, it opens a can of worms when it comes to noise and overflying congested areas without being on published IFR routes but honestly still better than hitting terrain or losing it going freestyle on low tight VFR in IMC
Straight lines IFR in IMC with rate1 turns, flying above safe altitudes is still way simpler and safer, at least it’s consistent departures and standard flight paths
I was told by UK IRE once during an IR+IMCr revalidation to make circling for “bad weather circuit” at 300ft agl if you hit clouds at 400ft on departure from “VFR airfield”, no sh**t sherlock, they do teach these things in schools for IFR pilots !
My guess he was flying low tight VFR circuit in IMC (noise or local constraints, maybe not IR rated or things like FR24 tracks ) or he had a problem and wanted to return back quickly
A VFR circuit in IMC? Did you see the webcam? That would have been outright suicidal.
What do you mean by „or things like FR24 tracks“?
A news article claims the pilot had an IR.
I’m with Malibuflyer
there are far too many accident discussions where people argue: yes, it is not quite legal (aka: “Illegal”) but ok/straightforward/safe/…
I have no idea if this is applicable here, but it is not unknown for people to fly a VFR circuit in IMC, for the benefit of nearby ATC radar. IMHO, H403HP was doing that.
At LOIH, as at LOAV, one needs to be careful doing that
Is there any reason to think the pilot was doing that? EDIT: got this FR24 track
He climbed up, climbing steadily, and hit the terrain. Not a loss of control.
What do you mean by „or things like FR24 tracks“?
You have to fly published VFR circuits due to noise complaints and local procedures and these usually end up with FR24 or Radar tracks, not the smartest thing earth to do in bad weather, they take you into terrain or loss of control in low clouds
As I said before, if he was IR rated why not just fly a proper IFR departure away from terrain, even in clouds no shame, no harm? just like any self respected IR pilot who climbs above his MSA away from terrain, why he flew that departure like a non-IFR pilot with a PPL? following VFR circuit in IMC?
