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Worth getting instruction for alpine flying?

Hi there! I’ve been very pleased to discover this forum, as it has a much higher signal-to-noise ratio than UK-based ones. The information on EU flying & practical IFR is invaluable.

I’m a new PPL, got my license in April and followed it up with an IR(R)/IMC rating. I current have ~130 hrs. My partner & I often holiday in the Dolomites, so next year we’d love to try flying to Bolzano via the Brenner Pass and experience some mountain flying VFR down the valleys.

I’m aware this question has come up before, especially from Brits – I apologise if you are sick of hearing it! But: do you think it’s worth getting a few hours of instruction in the Alps before going for it solo? Or should I just pick up a copy of the Mountain Flying Bible, learn the general rules of mountain flying, read up on local conditions and go for it?

I don’t want to be unneccessarily cautious, but on the other hand I remember that my flying experience is still quite limited – I am up for an adventure, but I also don’t want to be stupid!

I’ve read a few old threads on the topic, but can’t make up my mind:
https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/1938-picking-up-vfr-mountain-flying
https://www.euroga.org/forums/mountain-flying-instructor-germany-austria-croatia/9612
https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/11214-vfr-mountain-flying

Although I couldn’t plan to fly IFR in Europe, having the IR(R) gives me a lot more confidence as, in an emergency, being able to safely climb away into IMC is an extra option for escape (noting O2 altitude limitations)

Last Edited by SteakAndAle at 02 Nov 17:36
EGSG, United Kingdom

SteakAndAle wrote:

But: do you think it’s worth getting a few hours of instruction in the Alps before going for it solo? Or should I just pick up a copy of the Mountain Flying Bible, learn the general rules of mountain flying, read up on local conditions and go for it?

In short – do both. The cumulugranitus can bite badly, especially people (not only in aviation !!) that come from the lowlands and aren’t used to it.

SteakAndAle wrote:

being able to safely climb away into IMC is an extra option for escape (noting O2 altitude limitations)

Unless you fly something like an F16 – fuggetaboutit. The secret to mountain flying is to use your superior judgment to avoid getting into a situation where you have to use your superior skills.

172driver wrote:

Unless you fly something like an F16 – fuggetaboutit. The secret to mountain flying is to use your superior judgment to avoid getting into a situation where you have to use your superior skills.

Ha, I didn’t mean going vertical and blasting off to FL300 :D Just that if a cloud layer suddenly came down and I didn’t have an VFR “out” – which would be bad planning on my part – I wouldn’t have to remain trapped underneath it. Good terrain awareness would be key, of course.

EGSG, United Kingdom

How high you have flown your aircraft in the UK? flying “above Alps” is easy, if you can answer this single question

I got surprised once that I could not get C172 above 6kft (I did blame old airframe, tired engine and gravity), I figure out what was the problem later on and I took it to 12kft but I was glad my first dry run attempt was north of Cambridge not in Chamonix

Doing the valleys even in fair weather is a different game, you need more understanding and experience though, landing in altiports will require more training…

Doing valleys with clouds and strong winds, you need immortality skills, it’s rare for pilots to have this

Last Edited by Ibra at 02 Nov 19:38
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

When beginning with mountain flying either go carefully or get instruction. Or both.
Climbing into IMC then means you then can’t see the granite! Not really an option for an early mountain experience.
I’d suggest sticking to wx where you’ll not even need to think about that.
Additionally if just ‘giving it a go’ stick to the easy well documented pass routes but remember to research the minimum passing heights so you don’t find a section where you can’t outclimb the rising valley floor.

United Kingdom

Welcome to EuroGA, SteakAndAle

First, “mountain flying” is not flying over the top (which is easy, with a decent performance plane and wx awareness). MF is flying inside the canyons, which needs expert local knowledge, unless the conditions are totally CAVOK and then your main consideration is not getting trapped in a narrow canyon (there are others). The safest way is straight over the top, a few k above the terrain.

If you want to do MF then you need to be a lot more careful. You don’t list your aircraft type. You need adequate performance and think ahead; read this for how to not do it.

Bolzano is easy, however


Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

You have missed one important thread to read if you are a novice British pilot and want to fly
in the Alps:

https://www.euroga.org/forums/flying/11161-piper-arrow-g-bvdh-down-on-the-simplon-pass-in-switzerland?page=11#post_223677

jgmusic was what seemed like a considerate pilot and he did a lot of mental preparation. Then he crashed passing the Sempione, in (as far as we know so far, the final report isn‘t out yet I believe) problem-free weather conditions.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

oh nooo, not another popcorn thread

Seriously though… the Swiss (and neighbouring alpine countries) are born within the Alps, meaning they know one or two things about them. Still, a good portion of the PPL syllabus is dedicated to mountain flying… why? Because they are plenty of traps, and most will lead to a lethal outcome. Every year brings its share of mostly foreign victims, e.g. flying from the North to the South or v.v.. Overrating the aircraft’s performance, or one’s judgement… or underrating the elements, are the most frequent reasons for those accidents.
Even seasoned pilots are at risk. Yes, I’m one of them.

Your sack called Experience is pretty empty. The other one called Luck quite full. Don’t offset that balance by emptying it too quickly…

Dan
ain't the Destination, but the Journey
LSZF, Switzerland

I am on the EuroGA zoom right now (there is a presentation) so can’t write a lot, but let me make one point: in this kind of advice, one must cover the negatives, but once those are covered, one should move to the positives – the sheer wonder of flying around the Alps. Like this for example.

When I was planning my first trips down that way, almost 20 years ago, particularly this one I got advice from assorted sky gods on the UK sites, and it was wholly negative. “The mountain waves will kill you” sort of stuff. Mostly one-liners of course, and later I found they came largely from Walter Mitty types anyway. As a result I was extremely conservative, flew first to Wangen Lachen, sat there for days, wasted a lot of time, sitting in the rain, when actually I could have sat at home and flown right across the Alps (on a right wx day) all the way to Croatia etc. The following year I said to myself Sod This and flew UK to Trieste, in ~5hrs – a much safer flight altogether.

One should keep to specifics as much as possible. Jgmusic crashed because he wasn’t high enough. Well, that’s obvious! But what led him to be too low? It wasn’t straight aircraft ceiling (PA28R). We don’t know, and probably never will. But one can work out some plausible reasons.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Mountain flying is something that needs to be learned and experienced, but it is certainly not some secret “rocket” science. Especially if you don’t want to land on some special airfields, but rather just want to cross the Alps and/or want to land on some of its main airports, like Innsbruck or Bolzano. There are indeed many ghost stories of it’s “dangers”, but there are also some really good advices out there. The “challenge” is to listen and take care of those good advices and to ignore the ghost stories, which is not easy for a “flatlander”. A flight with a local instructor, especially when the weather is not so great, might be an eye opener.

The eastern Alps are also easier to “fly” for a start, compared to the western Alps. I’ve somehow the feeling that the Austrian Alps suffer less from lethal GA accidents, compared to the Swiss Alps, but it’s hard to find comparable statistics about it.

Another big influence is your type of airplane. Flying a well-powered aircraft means a lot of additional safety.

Switzerland
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