Worth getting instruction for alpine flying?

UdoR wrote:

What you should prepare (valid for any flight in mountains) is: try to visualize what you will expect there. So that you know how to distinguish the valley you want to follow from the others which you don’t want to turn into. As I said, regarding the Brenner Autobahn it’s comparatively easy, but still you should know where you are.

Very good comment, but there a couple of extra points if I may:

- program your route into your GPS. I don’t use SD so not familiar with their charting, but in ForeFlight you can have the roadmap as base and that allows you to program very intricate routes. Again in FF you can preview your route in 3D (not sure if that’s implemented in Europe, though). It is VERY easy to turn into the wrong valley, even if you know the area well!

- be aware of power cables and cable cars. These are charted, make sure you understand where they are, some span entire valleys quite some height above the valley floor

- I don’t know where you live, but if you are near a little stream, go there and sit by the bank for a while. Water running over rocks or other obstacles behaves like air in the mountains: you can visualize nicely where down and updrafts are, where eddies form and where turbulence is.

- if you can (I know that’s not easy with the anal airspace structure in the UK) take your plane up to 8 or 10k ft and see how it behaves. Try a climb at max power and see how much less of a climb rate you get compared to what you’re typically seeing. Btw, if that doesn’t work in the UK, then do in Germany or France on your way to the Alps.

- lastly: enjoy!

There are plenty of places in the UK where you can go up to FL195 VFR. Around Norwich is one, and near Boscombe Down is another. Lots of others.

172driver wrote:

It is VERY easy to turn into the wrong valley, even if you know the area well!

We can’t say it enough, yes. I’ve been flying gliders in the Alps before times of GPS, that’s a complete different story to what you do nowadays, but still it can get you. But as long as you stay on that rather safe route of Brenner there’s not much to take into account else than that. You won’t even experience these downdrafts, because you just stay free of mountains and have always enough air below the wings. Just imagine it’s like on really old seafarer maps, in uncharted regions there’re monsters keeping the motivation high to do well in navigation.

Wow @SteakeAndAle !

Congrats! You seem to have stirred the pot with this OP! 42 posts in a few days is plenty for an EuroGA newbie. It makes it clear how open a forum this is and how disinterested and genuine most of the contributors are. Oh, well, maybe one or two (like me;?) wanted to show off a bit of their knowledge. Except perhaps in my case, it is forgivable for the higher good of collective knowledge.

I am personally a fan of mountain flying. The thrill of flying at 6000ft MSL amongst higher mountains is a few levels above normal cruising flight the same number of feet above terrain. So…enjoy!

It is really a well-meant enjoy. If you are not careful and thoughtful, though, instead of enjoying, you can put yourself in tough spots much more easily than on flatlands.

I agree with most that’s been said except the view that VMC ensures success in the mountains: not having a flat-horizon to look at can deceive perspective and mislead your regular judgement of airplane’s attitude and flightpath. Also, as discussed, you can put yourself in situations there is no out of. Beyond your Mk1 eyeball, VSI and altimeter , but also ASI and AI are your friends in the mountains.

Not knowing your plane type (it helps so much to answer your q’s correctly) here you are a not necessarily fully comprehensive but well meant simplified summary I put together for a group of flatlanders planning to join an EuroGA fly-in recently, at the risk of stating the obvious and repeating a lot of things you already know:

• When flying NA (non-turbo) spark-ignition engines at altitude, you need to lean. For performance, you should lean to peak power. If fixed-pitch, just lean for max RPM. For range you will typically lean a tad more. For cooling, you would enrich more than peak power or fly faster. Above around 6000ft da you cannot hurt an NA engine by leaning. Also, be mindful of your Vy and aim to stay at least a tad above for climb. Except on t/o, Vx is for emergencies and experts.
• If you can stay >2000ft above all mountains within 10nm then most mountain flying rules do not apply, otherwise some basics follow. Obviously if flying to an airport in the middle of the mountains , then some mountain flying is unavoidable.
• If below such altitude threshold then most of the times you will be flying up or down some kind of valley. If you are flying up a valley then terrain may outclimb your capabilities. It is not always easy to figure if you are going up or down a valley. It is also easy to mistake one valley for another and be at the wrong one, hence:
• Always fly bearing in mind you may have to turn around and go back the way you came (in case terrain outclimbs you, downdrafts or performance loss or whatever),hence:
• Always aim to fly on one side of the valley. If little wind, the RH side. If significant winds then the downwind side (of the valley, upwind from the mountain on that side) so you avoid downdrafts on the upwind side. This will leave you room to turnaround. If unsure if there is enough room ahead then slow down to slightly above Vy and turn around then climb further for another try or pick another route.
• Use mountain passes if able, and always cross mountain passes and mountain crests at 45 degrees (NOT 90-degrees) , to facilitate a turn-around if required.
• Use GPS with waypoints on the mountain passes and critical valley entries to figure if you are at the right place.
• If winds aloft at the altitude of the mountain peaks in the vicinity is >20kts, don’t go in the mountains unless you know what you are doing.
• Look outside: watch for cables (Skydemon and others very useful) and birds.
• If able, update your QNH frequently and listen in on 130.0 (mountain frequency in France and Spain).
• Look outside again

Welcome any useful additions from the forums collective wiseness!

IN short: not essential but by all means try and do some flying with a mountain instructor if you can at all. French language knowledge very useful to that effect, otherwise finding your instructor is more difficult. I can recommend LFCB (Pyrenees) and LFLG (Alps) for good mountain flying instructors. Try and do your planned flight on Google Earth or some flight simulator in advance in any case.

Antonio wrote:

Always aim to fly on one side of the valley. If little wind, the RH side. If significant winds then the downwind side (of the valley, upwind from the mountain on that side) so you avoid downdrafts on the upwind side. This will leave you room to turnaround.

If the sun is lower above the horizon, that can be a factor for picking a side as well. You don’t want to fly into the sun and the shadow of the mountain when turning around in some cases.

SteakAndAle wrote:

But: do you think it’s worth getting a few hours of instruction in the Alps before going for it solo? Or should I just pick up a copy of the Mountain Flying Bible, learn the general rules of mountain flying, read up on local conditions and go for it?

Both. In all areas of the Alps there are very capable instructors who will be happy to get your feet wet in the Alps. I can thoroughly recommend this. Ony guy I know does this from Augsburg and people who go fly with him to Alpine introductions usually are very happy with the experience. There are others in Switzerland, Austria and France who will be able to give you a thorough mountain experience within a few days or so. Flying to the Dolomites, which means Bolzano if i understand, usually is quite ok even for newbies, as the Breno Pass is quite low, yet I would very much recommend to get a really good alpine instructor to show you around. Also if one alpine crossing is shut, there are others which may be open. It is quite essential to know how the Alps “tick” and what possibilities you have. If you only know one crossing route, calculate with a 70% failure rate with your crossings. VFR, the alps are open on average on 3 days in 10 over the year and this may be aggravated if you only know one way to cross them.

Climbing out into IMC usually ends really bad. I know that people do it and have survived it, but quite a few more left a really ugly scar on the side of a mountain.

If you do your PPL in Switzerland or Austria, you get an introduction for the Alps automatically, which is nice but again a license to learn. Landing on airfields over 1000 m altitude, Density Altitude, Engine management (Leaning) and all that is something you have to experience and be shown by a pro in order to make the best of it.

I can point you towards a few individuals if you so wish who will be able to do this kind of intro with you. Contact me if you want. I am sure others also can.

Wow not much more and you don’t need no mountain bible any more. It’s all here.

More to read:
https://www.euroga.org/forums/vfr-alps-crossing/2688

It is funny to read how often “the Alps” become a kind of myth around European (GA) pilots. Even though I do recommend to catch first mountain experiences with an instructor, I’m not specifically thinking of the Alps, but more of mountains in general. Norway, Pyrenees, Carpathians… they all have serious mountain areas, but most people don’t seem to bother about those. Yes, local knowledge about valleys and wind systems helps, but we don’t need to make it a kind of “requirement”. Exactly this kind of thinking brings us down to further limitations, like mandatory familiarization flights to obtain site authorizations. Even though I can understand why pilots need instruction for Courchevel, I don’t quite understand it for airfields like Samedan.

In my opinion, a PPL-holder should be educated and adult enough to make a safe decision. If you never flew in (high) mountainous terrain before, the decision to take an experienced (mountain) instructor with you for the first time, would be a wise one. But this could also take place in the Pyrenees, or in Norway, Alaska, Himalaya, Rocky Mountains etc.

Frans wrote:

n my opinion, a PPL-holder should be educated and adult enough to make a safe decision.

If they do their PPL in a place where there are mountains, they will be. It would be helpful, if mountain training would be a compulsory thing for the EASA FCL PPL but that does not work because quite a few countries don’t have anywhere to train. On the other hand, it has been suggested that mountainous areas should be special access airspace reserved for those who have completed a mountain training. I am wary of that, because it would mean more red tape and restrictions, but on the other hand, it would be very wise to recommend training.

It is also a problem that in many EASA countries there are lots of PPL’s who never fly any higher than maybe 3000 to 4000 ft AGL due to either not needing it or due to airspace constraints. So they never learn leaning properly, which disqualifies them from mountain flying. Personally I think that any PPL training should include high altitude training, e.g. to take the airplane to it’s service ceiling and if possible take off and landings at airports higher than 3000 ft AMSL.

Yo are right, there is not much difference whether we are talking Alps or others. However, the Alps do actually have a kind of special status, as they are a natural barrier between most of northern Europe and the Med, so they have a lot more traffic than most other mountain ranges in Europe.

that mountainous areas should be special access airspace reserved for those who have completed a mountain training.

Aren’t the formal mountain courses in Italy, France, Switzerland, etc quite comprehensive programs to learn to fly bush type planes on steep off airport slopes and ski/glacier flying? The syllabus seems quite thorough and perhaps take several weeks in different seasons to achieve? They also include formal ground school.

Informal mountain familiarisation flights are by definition somewhat informal, and hopefully useful, but probably of variable content. It would be nice to know of a club that provides a decent mountain introduction course with some structure. I got my original PPL in Canada and the mountain aspect of the training was mainly weather and VFR navigation planning, knowing how to lean to achieve max power at high density altitude, and understanding how to cross ridges and judge the horizon in mountainous terrain.

The late Sparky Imeson’s book remains an excellent primer.

https://www.mountainflying.com/products/mfbr_info.html