Peter wrote:
What altitude does the Brenner pass need? I have been there but the whole route was flown at 13000ft which is above the terrain anyway.
And there’s the difference between flying the Alps, or in the Alps, as opposed to what Peter and some others are doing, namely flying above the Alps. An entirely different ballgame, and the risk of being pedantic, the difference between real flying and playing airliner…
Imagine yourself stuck in a valley, in an underpowered whatever aircraft, slope ahead rising, downdrafts, close to absolute ceiling, mixture not properly set, loss of real horizon reference against the outline of the mountains, and that valley that you took by mistake becoming narrower, bleeding energy rapidly whilst delaying decision, waiting for a miracle to happen, your mouth is drying out… if only I had… if only…
Peter wrote:
What altitude does the Brenner pass need?
The elevation of the pass itself is 4500 feet. At 5500 feet the valley is less than half a (nautical) mile wide at the narrowest point. At 6500 feet about one mile. At 7500 you have plenty of room.
I’ve never flown near the Alps. My flying is mainly among Scottish hills and in Utah/Colorado. My suggestion would be to first get some dual hill soaring at a gliding club. Which side of the valley you choose is important. And the middle may be O.K.
In Scotland, a fatal glider crash occurred near to where a C172 was inverted, but recovered, same time. Severe turbulence.
A C177 with 2 on board was pulled down from 7,000’ into the Cairngorms, then thrown up again clear of the cloud.
Be wary of going into the Scottish valleys in dubious weather as a starter. Though the hills are lower, the Atlantic weather is much closer. It can change very quickly.
Colorado Flight Centre, from whom I’ve rented, offer Mountain Flying Courses. Highland Aviation at Inverness do so too. I’ve not taken either, but I doubt if they can have much in common.
I suspect mountain flying is to a considerable extent a local skill.
For turning in a valley, turn while you have enough height to do a steep descending turn. Try it in the open – you’ll be surprised how little room you need.
Very few pilots fly into terrain in daytime without first flying into a cloud.
Very few pilots fly into terrain in daytime without first flying into a cloud.
I think that is correct, and for sure “VFR in IMC” is a factor in nearly all CFITs, but I also think a fair few crashes have been caused by not appreciating rising terrain versus one’s climb rate, which is why when flying when there are “hills” around one needs to learn to work out how to judge this. And the best way is to not have to judge it… climb up high enough so you can see the terrain which is far behind the stuff immediately ahead, and then you know you are already above the nearby stuff.
I have a number of videos which show this clearly, and I think this one does, in the departure from Aosta, going back home, at the start of here. And that isn’t “playing airliner” 
To be fair, that one was worked out beforehand.
Very few pilots fly into terrain in daytime without first flying into a cloud
Maybe not the case in Scotland but in hot weather at 8kft that happens
I am sure there is a steady count of crashes every year in August in the Alps all flying in gin blue sky, bunches of Microlights, Jodels, C172, SR20, Robins…you name it
I don’t think the ability to see what is 5km ahead help that much, you have to plan your flight path & trajectory 50nm ahead without looking outside every second to avoid the peaks or the passes, on instruments you know how far & high you are, on visual you want to see the terrain and peaks behind at level3 or level4 
This reminds me of people who talk about “visually avoid obstacles on takeoff with power & stick”, I am not sure that works unless you scarify airspeed and pray, what tends to work is proper calculations and pitch for speed and hope for the best
There is this that put the split at 50/50
I don’t think many people fly into terrain which is to one side. Not being able to outclimb stuff underneath you, sure. Box canyon is another case; less common.
Hi Steak and Ale
I did a very similar thing at roughly the same stage in my flying career. In my case, I got a PPL in the UK and then joined gvm in Sion, where they taught me all the bits of mountain flying that are included in the PPL in Switzerland. That’s just the basics but sufficient for them to let me fly their aircraft and enough to understand your limits. I’m very glad I did it and it wasn’t a big investment.
Overall, the approach to mountain flying that they taught was very practical. How to stay out of trouble and ensure you have a way out if you do encounter trouble. It’s nothing to worry about as long as you maintain a healthy respect for the mountains, the weather and the limitations of the aircraft.
As part of my PPL I flew to Chambéry with my instructor for a bare minimum introduction to flying in the alps. At altitude and close to the mountains a lot depends on your rate of climb and how slowly you can fly. Everyone else here is vastly more qualified so listen to them instead but all I’d say is do your homework, start easy, and have fun.
If you want some background reading @RobertL18C previously recommended Mountain, Canyon, and Backcountry Flying by Amy Hoover and Dick Williams which I found clear and informative. Otherwise Sparky Imeson’s Mountain Flying Bible is the normal recommendation.
Ibra wrote:
Strictly speaking, unless you have an afterburner, you really don’t need power to do mountain flying
And even the afterburner doesn’t guarantee you can outclimb any mountain: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/plane-crash-blamed-on-human-error/6437464
SteakAndAle wrote:
so next year we’d love to try flying to Bolzano via the Brenner Pass and experience some mountain flying VFR down the valleys.
Flying the Brenner Pass is really fairly easy, comparing with flying other valleys or trying crossing the main ridge elsewhere. I wouldn’t call that real mountain flying, as long as you stay above, say, at least 8000 ft or even 10.000ft. The mountains to the north are quite low and the valleys are broad. The Brenner Autobahn can easily be spotted from the air. During crossing the main ridge you are in the Innsbruck CTR and thus have someone to talk to in case of any questions. And you can even land in Innsbruck if things go wrong. So yes, starting with the Brenner is a good idea and I would say that it can be done without any mountain course.
What you should prepare (valid for any flight in mountains) is: try to visualize what you will expect there. So that you know how to distinguish the valley you want to follow from the others which you don’t want to turn into. As I said, regarding the Brenner Autobahn it’s comparatively easy, but still you should know where you are.
And don’t dare to think that Skydemon (or any other app) will help you out of any trouble! When you are used to using it in the alps it’s a great help, no question. But first time below ridge altitude you might have trouble interpreting what you see on your display, because it seems to not fit to the outside. It’s better to know which mountains you will pass and how they will look like. I don’t mean every peak, but for example knowing where the Stubaier Alps are relative to Innsbruck, or the Tuxer or the Zillertaler will definitely help you and will make the flight even more enjoyable, because it’s fun to identify the mountains during flying.
