vic wrote:
Freedom of flight and flexibility don´t go together with PPR in my eyes ,give me 10 flugleiters instead any day.
You don’t need either.
It was not me coming up with wanting to have a fire truck before landing, Ibra told his story. Scratching my head how one would call the fire truck at an unattended airfield ?
He also wrote “I would have diverted in answer was NO or fire truck was not available on those occasions but would land without when it’s business as usual”
The bizarre thing here is why a Flugleiter is so necessary in Germany when every other country in Europe are doing fine without them.
The basic problem with any kind of “mandatory staff” is that it prevents the operation of unmanned airfields, which cripples the bottom end of the GA operations sphere, and “private strips”. It cripples the “grass roots” portion of the activity.
It is like the UK CAA requirement for full ATC for instrument approaches. Yes I know there are ways around it but they are mostly designed to be almost completely useless e.g. the 6/day approach limit at Sywell. The staffing cost cripples the utility value of the airfield.
And if you have the person working for free, that tends to result in “weird” people doing the job… it is the old “volunteer organisation problem” where obnoxious people rise upwards faster than the others. Just look at your local volunteer organisation(s) – in GA or anywhere else! They are mostly dominated by funny duddies.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The bizarre thing here is why a Flugleiter is so necessary in Germany when every other country in Europe are doing fine without them.
Even more bizarre that Germany still is one of the countries with the most private pilots (per population) in Europe. Just imagine how many private pilots there could be in Sweden if you introduced mandatory Flugleiters ;-)
Malibuflyer wrote:
Even more bizarre that Germany still is one of the countries with the most private pilots (per population) in Europe. Just imagine how many private pilots there could be in Sweden if you introduced mandatory Flugleiters ;-)
Never thought of that!
Peter wrote:
The basic problem with any kind of “mandatory staff” is that it prevents the operation of unmanned airfields, which cripples the bottom end of the GA operations sphere, and “private strips”. It cripples the “grass roots” portion of the activity.
Academically this is an extremely valid concern. Practically, however, at least in Germany this is completely irrelevant!
“Private strips” are quite difficult to establish in Germany due to population density, environment protection, agriculture land use regulation, noise sensitivity, obstacle clearance (wind power …) and many more. I’ve not heard from a single initiative for a private strip in Germany that failed due to Flugleiter requirement (and all private strips I know are licensed w/o a Flugleiter.
Esp. the “bottom end of GA” in Germany is significantly driven by flight club (real clubs and not ownership syndicates that are common in other countries). In a flight club finding a Flugleiter is rarely a real issue if people actually want to fly.
In my perception the Flugleiter-Discussion is not driven by “the bottom end of GA” but rather by some IFR pilots who want to fly in marginal weather (often in illegal weather) or come home later at night long after the last glider has landed and the people who spend significantly time with/for the club already had their 2nd beer…
rather by some IFR pilots who want to fly in marginal weather (often in illegal weather) or come home later at night long after the last glider has landed and the people who spend significantly time with/for the club already had their 2nd beer…
That may be so, but surely that is a valid reason, especially as the IFR guy is likely to be buying substantial amounts of 100LL on which the airfield makes ~€0.30/litre.
Your PA46 may be a good example.
Everybody has been telling me that nobody flies in “illegal wx” in Germany 
I’m of course not the average pilots (as nobody is the average pilot), but in my experience the Flugleiter topic is a non issue and you are spot on:
In all my years of flying I only had two time where the destination airfield would not accept me due to “missing Flugleiter”. In both cases I called the airfield and the answer was the same. “You would be 2 hrs. after the last other traffic we expect and I really do not want to sit around wasting time waiting for you.” In one of this cases I said “I understand – I’ll take the airport that is 20 mins away” and in the other my reaction was “how many casks of wine would it take to change your mind?” and we found an agreement ;-)
Malibuflyer wrote:
“You would be 2 hrs. after the last other traffic we expect and I really do not want to sit around wasting time waiting for you.” In one of this cases I said “I understand – I’ll take the airport that is 20 mins away” and in the other my reaction was “how many casks of wine would it take to change your mind?” and we found an agreement ;-)
I pay someone 50£ in cash and 25£ in wine to switch runway lights ON, but I doubt he will do that favour to non based aircrafts no matter how much wine you want to offer, I still prefer he stays in his home and we have a PCL installed, happy to keep sending him that money if it’s that the problem…the funny bit he was not around once but the lights were ON, he called 1h latter asking if everything was OK 
Maybe German pilots who are happy with Flugleither, need to go flying in US to get a feel of how things work with empty airports !
As UK pilot I was also happy with strict PPR/no PCL/no IAP, I never questioned these things, it seems natural that one need to phone for prior persmission to land, no?
If US is far away, maybe look nearby to France and how empty airports are managed, not ideal as France still has the silly “French only” when no one is around but it’s pilot RT skill that one can muddle through rather than begging someone else to be there for you or flying only when English AFIS is around, I personally hate begging or asking for favours
Reading this discussion makes me very happy with the setup at Enstone.
During the various Covid-19 lockdowns people have asked me whether it’s been closed or remained open, and thus whether I’ve been able to fly. The question puzzled me slightly at first, and then the only real answer I could come up with was that a place like Enstone has no such concept as being open or closed. It’s just there, and if you want to you can fly your aeroplane – it’s up to you.
It seems a strange assessment of risk to be prepared to fly light aircraft but only if someone is around to watch your takeoffs and landings. YMMV…..
There is a deep political problem with changing things like the Flugleiter rule. To remove the requirement is essentially to admit it was never necessary, and that causes a massive, systemic, loss of face – something which is usually unacceptable to a regulator.
Graham wrote:
The question puzzled me slightly at first, and then the only real answer I could come up with was that a place like Enstone has no such concept as being open or closed. It’s just there, and if you want to you can fly your aeroplane – it’s up to you
It’s different at Enstone but in other places with one flying school & restaurant business on top of the runway, they may have a different opinion: the runway had to be closed in Covid-19 lockdown as aparently it’s Stop Way or ASDA goes as far as the school reception desk and the lunch table !
