It’s nothing more than “pencils are evil because Nazis used pencils” argument
Unlike the Flugleiter requirement, pencils were and remain widely used in liberal democracies worldwide.
What is sad about the German “Flugleiter” requirement is not merely that it is unnecessary and counter-productive to aviation safety. It’s that the support for such illiberal nonsense (which we see here) is symptomatic of the kind of blind acceptance of authoritarianism which threatens all of us like a dormant tumour.
Cobalt wrote:
As for the rest – Germany and Austria are pretty unique in their requirement for this sort of personnel;As far as I know, taking-off and landing in the Netherlands requires also some kind of personnel on the airfield or at least someone to be on-site to operate the radios. That makes it at least 3 European countries, where you cannot use unmanned/unattended airfields. I’m not sure about Belgium though, maybe they have also some kind of such requirement? Austria has a project going on in Leoben-Timmersdorf (LOGT), where you can use the airfield unmanned, but as far as I know, it’s very limited to only 4 movements or so and therefore a strict PPR requirement. @Snoopy could maybe tell more about it.
Cobalt wrote:
It is also equally full of people whose reaction to these rules is best described as a mild case of Stockholm syndrome.
LOL, good one and very true.
Frans wrote:
Switzerland is a completely different type of country. They give a lot of responsibility in general to their own citizens, not only aviation-wise. Even if you fly to an attended airfield, often nobody will tell you the active runway from the C-office. You just do the overhead and choosing the runway direction completely on your own. Some airfields even have public roads crossing the runway or taxiways, where you need to watch out at your own (e.g. Kägiswil) or need to operate barriers by the push to talk button (e.g. Ambri). Something like this is unthinkable in a country like Germany.
Yep, we get to vote in June about quite some vital legislation which might cause massive cost increase to aviation and quite a few other things. At least, if it gets accepted, we will have to consider that it is the wish of a majority. Germany on the other hand is one vote away from a Green chancellor.
172driver wrote:
I’ve heard this is being reviewed / abolished. @Snoopy will know more.
Since two years no Flugleiter required in Austria. 4 movements an hour or something permitted. In practice, those fields that do it, it’s now like in Italy, France etc..
Apparently the historical explanation was, in 1955 as part of obtaining independent state rights and ending the occupation after WWII, aviation was strictly regulated and all movements had to be registered to hinder a silent build up of flight training for military reasons.
Since most airfields are club owned and operated (mostly on weekends), there were always enough busy bodies who did the job and whenever a discussion arose it was killed by the „who calls an ambulance if something happens“ argument.
It is amazing how many and how violently non German pilots are trying to persuade German pilots that they should feel miserably – mainly based on theoretical considerations w/o any practical experience.
Practically it is actually quite handy to have a Flugleiter at the airfield all the time (not as regulator but as “a guy who takes care of whatever”) and one extremely rarely is practically limited if ne wants to do a legal flight.
Most people that actually complain about Flugleiter based on real experience are the ones that either want to take off outside operating hours or on z-flightplans from a VFR only field in IMC and do not want to get caught.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Most people that actually complain about Flugleiter based on real experience are the ones that either want to take off outside operating hours or on z-flightplans from a VFR only field in IMC and do not want to get caught.
I disagree.
Take a look at the USA. Thousands of airports and airfields useable without restrictions.
A Flugleiter is a huge restriction for very little benefit (if one at all).
Operating hours are stupid anyway. An airfield is there 24/7, just like a road.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Most people that actually complain about Flugleiter based on real experience are the ones that either want to take off outside operating hours or on z-flightplans from a VFR only field in IMC and do not want to get caught.
Total conjecture. Or do you have any data to back up your claim?
If it’s so great, then I am sure these people will still be around doing what they have been doing even without a legal mandate. If not, more pragmatic solutions will be found. But the really puzzling part are the pilots who think that this needs to be obstructed centrally with a one-size-fits-all approach.
Having someone with no authority to give clearances on the radio telling you “next report final” is actually detrimental to safety, because pilots think they’re communicating with the guy on the ground, instead of with other pilots. Which is the intention of an A/A (Air/Air) frequency. As is someone blocking the frequency with “The wind is 2 knots now from 200° and the QNH is 1002” every time that you report “left base runway 24”.
Funny how people think it’s good to have some bureaucratic setups to enforce some funky legal rules that offer no safety benefit just to protect some chain of liability, do we have any data to support that the presence of Flugleiter did enhance GA flying safety in Germany? something solid not just heuristics or scenarios that keeps one peace of mind (I doubt it as clearly the US has a better safety record without this restriction/protection)
Ibra wrote:
Funny how people think it’s good to have some bureaucratic setups to enforce some funky legal rules that offer no safety benefit just to protect some chain of liability, do we have any data to support that the presence of Flugleiter did enhance GA flying safety in Germany? something solid not just heuristics or scenarios that keeps one peace of mind (I doubt it as clearly the US has a better safety record without this restriction/protection)
Playing the devil’s advocate here:
Do we have any solid data that GA is safer in the US vs. Germany, on a meaningful scale (like accidents per hours flown)?
Nope, both US & Germany have similar GA safety records overall but US seems to operate safely with millions of mouvements at uncontrolled/untowred GA airfields, this goes from from 2-seat LSA to 20m$ Bizjet, but maybe FAA & AOPA are hiding some crashes for unattended operations? but they seem to lobby a lot to keep it going this way
https://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/Pilot-Resources/ASI/Safety-Advisors/sa08.pdf
Not just GA, you don’t need the Flugleiter to operate B737 in uncontrolled airfields without ATC, just announce on AirToAir CTAF/Unicom frequency, look outside the window, takeoff and pick you clearance in the air, I am sure such thing is impossible in Germany, as airliner with MTOW>14T can’t fly without controlled airspace with full time ATC, and most German pilots will feel ashamed to depart on Z-FPL from unattended VFR airfields, they will get accused of busting IMC distances from clouds without ATC or Flugleithers knowing about it !!
But in US they just seem relaxed very about it, in other words the business does not stop due to silly rules, I am sure the pilots would not operate B737 in OVC001 without “Flugleithers” or “ATC” but on sunny days why not?
