Flugleiter in Germany - pointless?

MedEwok wrote:

although I’m sceptical wheter much will change in practical reality anytime soon.

I really do think this changes the situation. For example, it comes quite expensive to have to contract several BfL (Flugleiter), and opening hours e.g. from 0600Z to 2000Z means in fact at least 2 shifts a day.

It might be, that you could open an aerodrome say on sunrise (or whatever), but w/o Flugleiter. Between say 0800Z and 1600Z or so you could have a person in charge on the tower, which could result in only 1 shift a day. This reduces annual costs of an aeroclub (such as where I am flying) and thus would reduce in improving the fees for flying. (in Germany, a lot of clubs really are member-owned clubs, legally defined to not have any interest in making money; This in turn means, that the salaries of the BfL have to be “generated” in part by income from the club members)

And for any small airfield you could waive the PPR requirement, where practically the only reason for such a regulation is the need for a Flugleiter.

I assume that this won’t be possible if any IFR approach existed, or that IFR was PPR outside the operation hours with BfL on site.

Can the Flugleiter do other jobs e.g. man the fuel pump, do the radio, etc?

It is not that easy.

UdoR wrote:

It might be, that you could open an aerodrome say on sunrise (or whatever), but w/o Flugleiter.

For instance, according to German regs, before any operation, a runway inspection has to be carried out and properly logged by the airfield operator. There are various other small tasks by the Flugleiter, like logging movements.
So, doing away with the Flugleiter (for alerting reasons in case of accidents) does not do away with all the mandatory tasks.

It’s a long way to go, both in terms of pilot awareness but also in terms of regulatory framework.

This seems really strange to me: I’ve learned to fly in LFOL, with nobody doing any of the tasks the Flugeleiter seems to be doing and that some in Germany thing are essential to flying… And now, I fly seaplanes to lakes or fjords, having to rely only myself to check for the status of the ‘runway’, well the water surface, wind direction (not even a windsock anywhere close) separation to boats … or on wheels I like going to small airstrip, 500m grass strips, much better than lakes, they have windsocks :-)

In short, the whole idea of mandating someone to be present at an airport is alien to me, unless the airport is having commercial traffic…

boscomantico wrote:

a runway inspection has to be carried out and properly logged by the airfield operator

That is included in the “change of nappies” for us pilots. Like this:

Peter wrote:

Can the Flugleiter do other jobs e.g. man the fuel pump, do the radio, etc?

Yes of course, the Flugleiter typically does exactly this all the day. He manages the fuel pump, is on the radio to indicate wind and runway condition (how many chunks of the last microlight are still there to take care of) and notes down all that happens on the aerodrome, such as landings and takeoffs.

But we are in 2021 guys! It’s not so difficult to detect airplane movement with technical means. And still, typically the responsibilities go over to the pilot, so the pilot has to indicate any movement outside opening hours. It’s already like this with “Fliegen ohne Flugleiter” (flying without Flugleiter). If you takeoff or land outside opening hours, then you have to pass over takeoff / landing time.

Will be interesting to see what happens when this regulations will be dropped.

It’s like with the regulations for maintenance, which are far more liberal now. I heard guys saying that there will be a lot of planes falling down from the skies due to a lack of maintenance. Hellooo! This is my life! I can decide! Pilot/owner maintenance is for the pilot, who flies himself, so I will take the same care, but may decide whether topics which are totally unrelated to safety have to be done.

If I decide to start on an aerodrome, then why can’t they let me make that decision?

By the way, having a Flugleiter does not mean that the runway is usable and no obstacles on it and the like. I already had several occasions with birds on the runway. And honestly, most runways are so flat, you would see obstacles. And if it is not, then you should check the runway anyway. Still don’t see why it is necessary, whenever flying on a private – and not commercial! – flight.

Many small airport in Germany will be open to VFR GA only (or rarely see IFR traffic).

What happens on bad weather days? Does the Flugleiter just pack up and go home, knowing that that there won’t be any traffic today?

Then imagine an aircraft flying cross country, that encounters the poor weather an decides that they have pushed things far enough and they want to divert. Are they now prohibited from using this airport because there is no answer on the radio and must they go searching for somewhere else to divert to?

In asking this question, I’m not thinking of an emergency situation, but rather one of reducing weather, where the pilot thinks “I’m pushing things too far. Better stop now before it becomes an emergency.”

I had exactly this situation one time previously in France. I turned around and diverted to a local airfield. It was a VFR field and because it was a) a weekday and b) crappy VFR weather (legal but not particularly nice), there was nobody around. I was able to fly down the runway low level and inspect it myself and then do a circuit to land and sort myself out.

Is this illegal in Germany? Or does the Flugleiter hang about all the time even if nobody is flying because of crappy weather?

dublinpilot wrote:

What happens on bad weather days? Does the Flugleiter just pack up and go home, knowing that that there won’t be any traffic today?

Well, on airfield without notified opening hours, yes.
But at airfields with notified opening hours, no, he will remain there.
He will usually either do admin stuff, some maintenance stuff, or do nothing.
Also, what is “bad weather”? You would be surprised in which conditions some aircraft fly at these VFR airfields. Everybody closes his eyes. Especially when you are talking about company-operated PC12, small jets etc that are based at VFR airfields. For departures, they go even in case of almost zero zero. For arrivals, it depends on on a lot of things, like terrain surronding the airfield, equipment in the aircraft and balls of the pilot. Sometimes it goes wrong (Trier).

Still, in case you need to divert to a “closed” airfield for saefty reasons, you can always land at any of these airfields and should not face any difficulties taking off again later. That’s the theory. In pratice, most (German) pilots will fear the consequences and will not consider it, even in case of difficulties, and will rather look for an “open” airfield, even if that may be more risky. This is the point Skydriller made before.

boscomantico wrote:

Also, what is “bad weather”? You would be surprised in which conditions some aircraft fly at these VFR airfields

I agree. Some of the loudest voices against Flugleiter in Germany come from people who feel restricted to do illegal operations.

boscomantico wrote:

Still, in case you need to divert to a “closed” airfield for saefty reasons, you can always land at any of these airfields and should not face any difficulties taking off again later. That’s the theory.

Also in practice – once had to do this (with a full electric failure during IFR flight) and due to the lack of radio I did not even know that the field was closed. The only consequence it had was that SAR called me on my mobile 5 minutes after landing to check if everything went well. I filed a report with BfU later but never heard back. The airfield did not even want to have landing fees from me…

But agree: There is a lot of unjustified fear by many – based on stories that someone heard that the friend of a neighbor of ….

Sorry, I don´t see why one should be so upset about flugleiters, they are there for a number of tasks about the airfield, mainly on the ground. But occasionally also for situations when pilots fu**up – yes , they do. It is not the job of the flugleiter indeed but they can save your ass – but not my point. Legally they are not required by the NAA as anybody may take over their job, like somebody in the restaurant or skyjumpers staff. It is a requirement by the operator of the airfield who decide about flying with or without flugleiter and if they don´t approve you have to accept this. In case of public owned airfields with business traffic the flugleiter is paid fulltime ,often two of them active for various jobs, mostly not overworked. So these get their wages from landing fees and mainly from hangar rents and a bit from fuel sales. Also runway maintenance and other electronic equipment, hangars etc. will take money so the owner of the place will see to keep costs balanced. It is naive wanting the public to pay for all costs by pretending an airfield is infrastructure like railways or autobahns. Be honest and admit that maybe only 10 or 20 percent of air traffic is really an alternative to car or train travel, the most is just joy flights so why should the public take all costs of an airfield ? The pilot community is only a fraction of a percent of the public which has no benefits from it except the noise. A flugleiter will have an eye on keeping opening times obeyed otherwise neighbours will do their best to have the airfield closed and you cannot have much faith in pilots to respect this. There are quite some characters of pilots who you can bet don´t care a lot about that sort of respect, sorry to say. On a private airfield the situation is different with somebody on the mic doing the job without much of a pay, my guess they get next to nothing but don´t have to do other labour for the club each year. So there are no real costs to finance a flugleiter and no costs to save by not having them. One nice thing about having somebody live at the airfield is to listen to info from him and other pilots for knowing early enough which runway to be active without first having an overfly the place checking the windsock – and hoping any other pilot has taken same decision on runway orientation for landing. When knowing runway from far away I can choose my approach so as to do direct approach or an economic traffic pattern join , saves some nuisance on ground and confusion in airfield airspace. But yes, a flugleiter is not ATC and this fact has to be beaten into any fresh pilot by the instructor , so don´t blame the man in the tower when a pilot thinks otherwise, he just provides some info but no disconfliction service. I would feel somewhat lonesome after landing in the middle of nowhere without having somebody as sort of concierge who may tell me where and how to get a fillup, getting me a taxi, suggesting some hotels and so on. This is no factor for pilots local to that airfield but would I feel welcome there without some chat with the man on the mic when paying a modest sum for his service, small as it may be ? Those places will be run mainly by clubs doing all duties free in their pastime so a little sponsoring by landing fee should be an honour I´d think. Again, some characters will think otherwise but these would not be people I´d like to have for friends. Anyway, there are aspects about the German flugleiter that some see very negative but it is not a matter of black and white when looking closely. They are no air police and you won´t find lots of Hitlers there, just to react on postings in foreign forums whenever some try to express whatever they like . In fact , most of the airfield staff on the mic will be a pilot as well , or was one before. So when you shout into the woods don´t be surprised about the echo. What would annoy me no ends is the PPR nuisance in some countries: This ceremony is rarely spread here and I would ignore these places for sure any time, give me some flugleiters instead please. When having a nice trip I do not want to organize any landings the day before . This is not freedom of flight I say, so when going along I rather contact an airfield I found nice and handy and ask for landing info. When nobody seems to be at home – allright, let´s see the next place , no prior phone call expected. Looking at various countries you cannot possibly compare procedures and want to have everything that may suit you, conditions are very different so you cannot do like in Australia or some other lost places when airfields sit in crowded countysides. Vic

vic wrote:

Sorry, I don´t see why one should be so upset about flugleiters

You probably never had to wait to 9:00 to take off and hurry to return by 18:00 on a sunny summer day because of this superfluous requirement, when you could happily be on the beach on Juist from 08:00-19:00 on a day trip.

The problem isn’t that they exist – the problem is that they are mandatory, and even if they are not, you have the stupid requirement of somebody having to be there ‘just in case’