MedFlyer wrote:
Same company, in Ljubliana is cheap but in Adana Turkey is 10fold.
Airborne_Again wrote:
The claim that “socialists” are “the natural enemies of GA” is obvious nonsense. For one thing there is no ideological reason why that should be the case, also I personally know socialists who are not opposed to GA as well as liberals/conservatives who are.
Emir wrote:
For me, visiting Athens and Crete still can be done in cheaper way – flying to LGAV or LGIO as port of entries and then park at LGMG (for Athens) and LGST or LGIR (for Crete).
Correct and apart from the above port of entries with fuel, now with (non port of entry) Syros LGSO providing JETA1/AVGAS too, all options are available for touring in Greece.
Its just the nuisance of a visit just for fuel (and the 50 Euro handling with prior notice) in Syros but this island is a lovely destination and can be combined with a layover too.
Did AOPA Greece brought this to the attention of IAOPA?
I would approach it initially as a safety issue, with such prices making GA pilots to accept higher risk levels not to be robbed instead of play safely (i.e. fuel management).
lmsl1967 wrote:
Did AOPA Greece brought this to the attention of IAOPA?
From what I hear there are such procedures already in progress but at the very early stage.
AOPA Hellas on their own are a minute entity. This is a big issue that cannot be handled by a bunch of volunteers.
Bigger players and finance need to be involved when in comes to legal proceedings.
Emir wrote:
There’s huge difference between Swedish socialists and Greek socialists
by the looks of it between Swedish socialists and those anywhere else in Europe….
Fact of the matter is that if the handling sharks get their way, they will eliminate GA from ALL airports where they have a base as the money they make from them does not matter in context. They don’t want to be bothered by any movement which creates less than maybe 2000 Euros of revenue in handling fees and some substantial pax fees as well.
That is why privatizing infrastructure is so dangerous. Chances are that the users of that infrastructure end up being taken hostage by the new owners rather fast or are thrown out as it is not worth dealing with them.
I’ve heard the calculations such people make before and they keep claiming that for them administratively and how many people they need to handle them, there is no difference between a C150 and a Gulfstream 5, so the C150 should pay the same or bu66er off. Of course this is bullcrap but that is how they think. And they know that they now own the place so they can do as they wish.
This is one place where strict regulation on the part of the CAA is needed to tell them otherwise and ideally free GA up to say 2.5 tons from the obligation to get handling at all.
Quote brought over from the AOPA Thread as it references this thread.
C210_Flyer wrote:
Lets face it how many GA pilots actually to the islands in Greece? That would be a number that one would have to know. Correct? If only 1% of the pilot population of Europe actually flies down there the other 99% is not going to care enough to even write an opinion.
It is a hen and egg question. The Greek airport situation has always been such that quite a few European pilots never dared to fly there. Crappy hours, no avgas, parking PPR’s and all that were always problems which kept a lot of people out.
Look at Croatia for instance. They are very comparable as they have many airports and airfields on islands which are otherwise only reachable by boat. They are one of the most attractive countries to fly to for European PPL’s whereas Greece always has been unattractive and now becomes prohibitive.
Actually, it is a crime what is happening there. When I was in Crete last year i discussed with some people who have enough money to fly down there and who complained to me about how impossible it is for them to ever leave the island when they have to go to the mainland e.t.c. ALL the islands have airports, some multiple ones, the weather is generally great and this would scream for an active GA scene to get people shuttling back and forth between the islands and the mainland. But like the foreigners they know that airports in Greece are generally unusable for this purpose and that stationing an airplane in a place like Mykonos or Samos is impossible due to their attitude there.
For my part, this should be changed radically. Airports which have a monopoly on a place should be forced to allow GA unrestricted access and parking spaces, even if a few acres of concrete need to be added. Where there are alternative airports, they should be made available to GA as good as practicable or at least part of them. GA doesn’t need much, a slab of concrete to park our planes on, an avgas pump and maybe 1500 m of runway use.
Greece could be a flying paradise instead it is a no go land for most people.
One more way to solve this problem not only in Greece but EU-wide would be for some pilot organisation (whether AOPA or anything else) to establish itself as an airline-like entity, and then assert the right to self-handing already enshrined in the EU legislation. This may certainly involve compilation of necessary information to be disseminated to members, member training, background checks, issuance of ID cards, etc., but the total cost and time spent by every member to fulfil the relevant requirements would in the long term be much more reasonable than the handling fees.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Look at Croatia for instance.
They are one of the most attractive countries to fly to for European PPL’s whereas Greece always has been unattractive and now becomes prohibitive.
So, doesn’t that solve the issue? Go where you’re welcome, let the others stew in their misery. I’ve got no skin in this game, but I know where I’d go!
That’s not really a solution because Greece is a most beautiful country to visit, of all the places in Europe. I have been to lots of places (back in the days when I was young and I didn’t mind spending 12hrs overnight in an airliner full of screaming kids) and if one could go anywhere in say 3hrs we would still choose a Greek island. And so would millions of others. Many reasons e.g.:
)
)* exclude the crooked/predatory behaviour of some GA airport staff from this bit
This is why so many are passionate about Greece and despair to see it screwed like it is.
This year I plan to do the one usual airline holiday (Kalamata and driving around there) and one TB20 trip which will be something like UK – Croatia – Sitia and then pop over to Kastelorizo LGKJ and maybe some others.
If Greece was a $hithole like some places, with a lot of finger-up attitude to visitors, etc, then nobody would be having this debate.
Let’s see an example of a SX’reg GA aircraft parked at a now FRA-administered mid size airport (approx. fees, tax incl).
Pre-FRA:
- Parking fees: minimal.
- Landing fees: minimal.
- Pax fees: 15E/pax (excl aeroclub members).
With FRA until 31 Mar 2018:
- Parking fees: 500E/year.
- Landing fees: 60E/(full-stop) landing.
- Pax fees: 15E/pax (incl. aeroclub members).
With FRA from 1 April 2018:
- Parking fees: 3000E/year.
- Landing fees: 125E/(full-stop) landing.
- Pax fees: 15E/pax (incl. aeroclub members).
An A320/B737/AT72/DH8D/JS41 (that’s the airliner traffic of the medium-sized airports) would pay nearly double the landing fees and the same parking fees, and of course more money for the pax fees (although in winter they are half full). Of course a GA aircraft will take one parking spot from the big ones, but this is very easily solved by making new parking spots specifically for GA. Bear in mind that the mid size airports are severely underutilized Nov-Apr.
Greek GA pilots will also fly less, thus Greek GA may become less safe. In the end most of them will go to uncontrolled airfields. There are lots of these on the mainland, but Greek GA pilots are not taught too much to fly in an uncontrolled near-airport environment. I’m expecting lots of incidents if we all go suddenly to uncontrolled airfields.
If the current prices dug the grave of GA at these airports, the new prices are finishing the job.
