Electric / hybrid aircraft propulsion (NOT cars)

I don’t think anybody read what I wrote. I never said “electric can’t work” or “electric will never work” which is how it is being portrayed.

The issues are well known to anybody who knows anything about physics and engineering. The main disagreement is about the pace of technological change and that can be debated for ever.

BTW a huge amount of energy was used to make those photovoltaic panels. They also generate a miniscule amount of power (relative to electric vehicle requirements) in most of Europe, within the surface area which can be realistically installed in most places.

Nobody claimed the issues are not known. What some have claimed is that they are overblown, without factual backup.

Peter I think what achim means (and I concur) is that you sound overtly pessimistic about the prospect of electric or hybrid engines in GA. It appears as if you do not want the technology to succeed and replace IC engines in the long run.
This impression may or may not be correct. You rightly point out that the pace of development is hard to predict, which is absolutely true.

I for one think that achimha is right and we GA pilots should be at the forefront of users and promoters for new engine technology.

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what makes anybody think I don’t want some new technology to succeed

I expressed an opinion on (in substance) how long it will take for the required changes to emerge.

We are all entitled to our opinions and are free to express them here.

There is nothing special about mine, so it is puzzling why some people object to me posting them. When someone else expresses their opinion, in most cases nobody else cares.

Obviously I know the answer because I have been told it so many times: a moderator is not supposed to participate in the forum. One of the above guys even left for about a year, citing that as the reason And a few more left a few months ago after one poster got banned for posting personally offensive stuff about me (posting offensive stuff about a mod is supposed to be ok, apparently, and indeed we used to run EuroGA that way, until things got a bit out of hand with some really offensive stuff posted by someone with multiple personalities…). But, like I said, “you” are stuck with that, if you want a free and advert-free forum. Nobody else is going to do this job for free. And I try to do it in as balanced a manner as I can.

I mostly keep out of threads like this anyway. There is often a subtle “cultural” subtext and these render meaningful discussion difficult.

Anyway, all good engineers are black hats. Yellow hats etc never manage to make anything work

I think “promotion” of new technology rarely has any effect on progress other than to divert money from areas where rational thinking might otherwise take it. I say that based on about 30 years of experience spending other people’s money developing power and energy related technology, the last half of which has been involved with electrification, including a substantial role in one electification project funded over a billion USD. Sometimes projects at that level can push technology and low cost spin-offs occur, but if electric powered light planes are going to be made practical, cost effective and widespread in let’s say the next 30-50 years, the thing that will make it true is consumer demand, based on demonstrated performance, practicality and facts. Obviously that is not the case yet, and the energy storage technology to make it the case does not yet exist – at least not for anything but very short flights.

Not long ago, many here were saying (i.e. promoting) that Diesel engines were the inevitable direction for light aircraft. What is actually true and will remain true is that one aircraft manufacturer, serving one small regional market, has found a niche for Diesel powered aircraft… and totally filled it with few planes per year. Maybe the same will happen with electric planes (Pipistel?) and small electric trainers in Europe will be sold in measureable volume. RC model planes with their advantageous scaling have gone very much electric and the closer a full size plane is to an RC model in size and mission, the more likely it will deliver useable function.

@Peter
I obviously can’t speak for anyone else but I for one have zero objections to you participating in the forum discussions. On the contrary, the more the better. You often ask the interesting questions or have good answers. Please keep running EuroGA the way you do.

As I said, it was just an impression that you are not particularly fond of electric engines. And even if that were the case, you’d be perfectly entitled to such an opinion.

@Silvaire
Since light aircraft engines are of little public interest you are probably right that it will mainly be decided by the market how successful they will be. However military or public transport applications might draw additional public funding and thus increase the speed of development.

Silvaire wrote:

Not long ago, many here were saying (i.e. promoting) that Diesel engines were the inevitable direction for light aircraft. What is actually true and will remain true is that one aircraft manufacturer, serving one small regional market, has found a niche for Diesel powered aircraft…

The idea of a diesel engine in a car is lower CO2 emissions due to higher efficiency of a diesel engine. This is true today, and true for GA. The other thing is better driveability, lots of low end torque, which is pretty useless for a geared engine like the Austro anyway, but very useful in a car. The bad point is particle emission. This has seemingly killed the diesel as an engine in private cars. It has no future. However, the main reason for this overnight dropping of diesel, is the electric car. The future is electric, and those who don’t see that by now aren’t paying attention to what is going on – at all. I have been driving an electric car, every day for almost 3 years now. I have already ordered my next (Tesla Model 3). The largest change with an electric car, is you never go to the gas station anymore. It’s also better to drive, TONS of low end torque, it’s altogether a much more hassle free experience.

Just because cars are getting electric, doesn’t mean GA will be electric however. IMO there will be no electric revolution in GA, unless of course someone comes up with a killer product that everyone wants, but what is the chance of that?

There is one factor here though that many misses. It is true for electric cars, at least up to now, but it will eventually change when they get mainstream, and it is equally true for GA. The electric car is a paradigm shift. The very first, the earliest adopters of new technology, are never the core enthusiasts of the existing technology. Existing users always feel alienated by new technology, especially a fundamental shift like electric propulsion. The earliest adopters of electric cars 10-20 years ago where “hippies” and eccentric persons with no interest in cars. They got electric cars more as an extension of their personality or something, often as some kind of “protest” against existing cars. Later, some 3-5 years ago, electric cars started to make sense, and then ordinary people saw the usefulness in them, and started using them. Even today though, “real” car enthusiasts would rather not be seen dead or alive in one, simply because it’s not a “real” car. A “real” car has an engine that makes noise and needs liquid fuel. Who these “real” car enthusiasts actually are, is also rather peculiar. They are certainly not the average “motorhead”, they usually get one out of pure curiosity. IMO they are generally the average middle aged man feeling disillusioned because Tesla suddenly is THE thing to have, instead of their newly acquired childhood dream: a brand new BMW, Mercedes or Porsche (IMO they are all “better” cars than a Tesla, but that’s beside the point in this respect).

The same thing is happening in GA. Electric propulsion will not aattract the mainstream until some products arrives that have some benefits which existing technology just don’t have. It doesn’t need to be “better” in all and everything, only is some aspects. Until then, it’s something for experimenters and “eccentrics”, and maybe some niche like gliders and racing. Certified GA, forget it. Microlights and Experimentals will have it at least 2-3 decades before it becomes certified. Biz “jets” and airliners will have it before certified (light) GA.

You can be sure that R&D in batteries (the currently most obvious lowest hanging fruit / biggest limiting factor) is taking place at a frantic pace, but a frantic pace / billions of R&D money is no assurance of success. And progress is very very slow. Like in medicine, really…

Electric motors are great. I am installing a nice 3 phase variable speed drive onto my milling machine. But the motor is the easy bit.

BTW I hold shares in Tesla