From EBKT to EGSG yesterday, I flew; MAK DCT OO DCT KONAN DCT ITVIP DCT DET
I was initially given FL80, which would have meant Brussels would hand me off to London Information. I said negative and requested FL100. They coordinated very quickly and then gave me direct KOK. That then runs into KONAN. London kept me very high till almost 15 east of DET before descent and handover to Thames Radar.
The city was very busy, then a diving turn under the City Arrivals via Southend. I wonder if I should have stayed higher, then got a turn over the extended centerline at 4000ft but never mind. So yes, it seems like Brussels will even try to catch you out to prevent you from going into the LTMA.
We passed overhead Southend at FL120 from Netherlands once 
my understanding +FL100, you can cruise all the way to Stapleford overhead if you wish (you can ask to overfly London to enjoy the view before coming back to leave via BKP)
I think if you are in the band FL60-FL90, where they would dump you ASAP at DET, as you get under some shared transition altitude for all airports inside stack levels for vectoring/holding, don’t dream of cruising over there 
I have noticed though, the more I’ve flown in the London TMA the more likely I’ll get what I need rather than what I’ve seen given before. On the way to Kotritjk from Kemble, I got a nice routing south of London in between OCK and Gatwick and Biggin and Gatwick at FL100.
I have had right turn at DET direct to Stapleford. It’s basically a Biggin arrival then leaving OCAS east of LCY. I’ve been over or under the BNN stack with traffic holding a few times, Heathrow is back up to 1200 ATM now so usually holding 5-10 minutes at peak hours.
I am wondering what level I could get away with coming back from Girona to maintain cas from Brest/Paris to London without worrying. Presumably I can come down to FL120 or just stay at FL160 or FL140 till south of the coast?
I think we’ve cracked it!
So I flew to Lille yesterday, for the return a fellow IR pilot was flying back in the aircraft. We filed the following routing to Southend;
N0128F100 CIV DCT OKT DCT MADUX DCT RAPIX DCT LOGAN
We discussed the routing on the ground that between MADUX and RAPIX we would leave CAS and probably bust the LTMA unless Lille did something about it.
So we asked for routing via TRACA (SID) and then the usual route I’ve done ITVIP & DET just to confuse matters. We then explained that we would like to remain in CAS, and the controller said he would phone London. Despite leaving CAS for a short time near Calais, we were then handed off to London Control who identified us on a different squawk and whilst over France was giving a re-routing via L10 and then via the Southend STAR.
Not only was this super efficient but there were no issues.
Result
I don’t get it, you filed and flew FL100 then went OCAS, where? in London FIR? or in French FIR?
I think you only left airspace in Billercay near Stapleford I can assure you: FL100 Lille-Southend you are in controlled airspace all the way, you never leave controlled airspace (next time ask Lille, they will explain it to you B3 (IBRU-TRACA) is Echo +FL65 and L10 (TRACA-ITVIP) is Echo +FL65 in France and Alpha +FL65 in UK, so not sure where did you fly OCAS? also you never dropped under min airway altitude neither in UK SRD or in French AIP?
Next time try filing & flying that at FL60 and we can discuss more as those FPL gets lost
PS: Echo Airway is not shown on your SkyDemon screen (you can’t show it neither, while ago the boss of SD told me he will not as it’s “VFR product” and people don’t care about Echo and if the French do not show it he will not do it), but check your UK CAA VFR map it’s Echo from 1500ft to FL115 overhead Calais and FL65 to FL115 at RINTI
PS: Echo Airway is not shown on your SkyDemon screen (you can’t show it neither, while ago the boss of SD told me he will not as it’s “VFR product” and people don’t care about Echo and if the French do not show it he will not do it).
This is NOT true. All types of airspace can be triggered on/off in SkyDemon, including Class E.
That is not true, in SkyDemon you can show all airspace except French Echo Airways !
Maybe can you screenshare a picture with those French +FL65 ATS routes shown as Echo (Echo Airway: +/-5nm of Echo airspace along some published route not Echo TMA around some airport) in SkyDemon?
I can switch to “Airway mode” where all these are listed but you can’t see they are Echo
In pilotrobbie screenshot, he has Echo = ON, you can see Calais Echo TMA but not Echo AWY above it (again, overhead Calais it’s Echo from 1500ft to FL115 and SkyDemon does not show it no matter what settings you play with)
I asked SkyDemon to add them while ago, I can ask again there are not that many pilots who operate IMC OCAS or low IFR who will need some awarness of these, besides, at the end of the day SkyDemon is VFR product and VFR pilots don’t care about Echo
skydriller wrote:
This is NOT true. All types of airspace can be triggered on/off in SkyDemon, including Class E.
NOT correct – French airways in Class E are not show as Class E in SD, I’ve asked SkyDemon to add those and it was denied.
PS: crossed posts with Ibra.
Ibra wrote:
at the end of the day SkyDemon is VFR product and VFR pilots don’t care about Echo
Well, strictly speaking SD is a “semi-IFR” product. It has several features expressly for IFR and the disclaimer that you must not use it in IMC was replaces a few years ago with a disclaimer that it must not be use for primary navigation in IMC.
Airways are triggered on/off (includes low level French ones).
Class E airspace is triggered on/off.
I see what you mean now – What you are saying is that the 5nm corridor of “technically class E” around the airway in Class G isn’t shown… This isn’t surprising as it isn’t blanket class E above a certain altitude as in say, Germany.
I can’t say I’m that bothered – Im trying to think of a map where it is depicted like this, but can’t think of one. I’ve only ever seen the lines connecting the WPs with a min alt.
Regards, SD..
