FIR Handover - France or Belgium to London Info

I´m going to fly to EGNX tomorrow, going via Oostende and then along the coast to RINTI off Calais before crossing the water to Dover and via DET LAM pretty much in a straight line towards East Midlands. I plan to fly at FL100, so the outbound should work somehow. Going back on Tuesday with the forecast 50kts headwind at FL100 I plan to navigate around the mess of airspace around London at 2300ft or so. Challenging to say the least, MSL lower levels of TMA airspace mixing with AGL upper levels of ATZs, are you serious?? I would love to get handovers and crossing clearances at 3000ft, let´s see how that will work out. Past Gatwick I´ll try to join class A and climb FL90, and then via DVR across the Channel back into Belgium.

Thanks in advance for the insight provided here, I could not grasp the complexity of flying in this area before actually planning for such a trip.
It´s going to be a very interesting flight I guess.

MSL lower levels of TMA airspace mixing with AGL upper levels of ATZs,

Yes; this is a serious issue and you have to be full-on to avoid the ATZs because they are prosecuted same way as Class A (if you get reported).

Past Gatwick I´ll try to join class A and climb FL90, and then via DVR across the Channel back into Belgium.

AIUI there are LTMA crossing routes FL090/100, for GA etc.

The EGLL/EGKK traffic flow is the main tactical limitation, and the CAS is to contain the SIDs/STARs/etc “just in case”.

This and this show the sort of routes which ATC support. On the east side of the UK there is much less and most people fly in Class G.

AIUI there are LTMA crossing routes FL090/100, for GA etc.

I have a routing that validates at FL100 via DVR, thanks to a young colleague at AIS. But the wind up there is going to be just too much, I´d rather stay low. My daughter will come along, sightseeing will be much better. Also I´m really curious how uncontrolled IFR works. If the weather should be too bad I´ll bite the bullet and take the headwind up high. I would not want to go IMC in unfamiliar airspace at low level, even if legal. A man has to know his limits.

I´m really curious how uncontrolled IFR works

You fly the plane It is legal non-radio, and obviously a clearance of any sort is not passed (except for approaches to Class G ATC airports e.g. EGKA, EGKB). It is a VFR flight in all practical respects, on which you can enter IMC if needed.

Many Eurocontrol-valid routings are not actually possible, and the UK is not the only country doing that.

Calling London Info out of the blue to overfly Green Park at 3kft, NFW !

You need to be over Heathrow at +FL100 to cross or send you to Southend or Farbrough but if it helps, Gatwick can get you “tactical join” of LTMA with cruise at 3kft, they hand you to Thames to overfly city airport at 3kft then to Essex radar (now called Stansted Radar)

I have flown few times very low (icing ), I think it’s way easier to go via Dover, Margate & Southend and try to pick up IFR later on…

You need a valid, filed and active FPL, I file FL100 irrespective of what I am planning to fly on the day to avoid “losing it” and besides you don’t fly single route, heading or altitude as expected anyway…the point of what you have filed is moot, still ATC needs to fetch a “serious flight plan” to give you airspace join before vectoring you around

Edit: sorry, I was thinking you are talking inbound UK outbound it’s easy you fly at 2300ft untill DET, Thames radar gets you a climb to 4kft and LTC get you a climb to FL100 at DVR, you can talk to Heathrow Radar or Thames Radar (see city airport AIP and just ask them for join at DET VOR), the other way is to ask London Info FIS but I am afraid you will be in Belgium by the time they get you a clearance from ATC…

Peter wrote:

You fly the plane It is legal non-radio, and obviously a clearance of any sort is not passed (except for approaches to Class G ATC airports e.g. EGKA, EGKB). It is a VFR flight in all practical respects, on which you can enter IMC if needed.

This concept has been difficult for me to grasp, and I thought it was specific to the UK, but the lightbulb came on for me yesterday when I was reading the Lithuanian AIP in preparation for my trip to pick up my airplane from Termikas. Since I mostly fly IFR on long international trips, I don’t pay much attention to airspace since that’s basically sorted for me by ATC. But when I dropped off the plane (arriving IFR to EYPR, which sits in class G) I kept asking for permission to descend, turn direct to the field, etc., and eventually the controller just told me I could navigate and descend at my discretion.

So anyway last night I was reading the AIP, and I noticed a few things that helped connect the dots for me:

1. Lithuanian airspace is similar to UK airspace in that it’s mostly class G except at high altitudes and in terminal areas. This is very different from the US (where I did most of my IFR flying) and parts of Europe, where class E dominates the non-terminal airspace.

1. Airspace rules allow both IFR and VFR flights in class G, but there is no separation. This is made explicit in SERA.5025, which details the requirements for IFR in uncontrolled airspace. Only the capability to establish communication with ATC is required.

1. Because class G is uncontrolled, by default there are no clearances given and therefore none required. As a corollary, the loss of an IFR clearance when entering class G is logical.

1. The minimum altitude rules in SERA.5015 apply (2k ft / 8km in mountainous areas, 1k ft / 8km otherwise), “except when necessary for take-off or landing”. This theoretically should mean that an IFR departure from a class G field should be fine, as should a landing. There seems to be no specific requirements related to IFR approaches to these fields, so one can extrapolate that it is possible to do a DIY approach (an overhead circling descent to circuit height for example).

So for me, the difference with UK, LT, and a fair number of other countries is the ubiquitous presence of class G to fairly high altitudes, which enables the above fairly universal provisions to be relevant. In the vast majority of the US class G ends at 700 or 1200 ft, which makes “uncontrolled IFR” basically impossible. A quick survey of European airspace shows that other than northern France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany, and parts of the Nordics, there’s quite a lot of class G around.

Please correct if I’ve made any wrong assumptions!

I thought it was specific to the UK

It’s not, it can be done in US under Part91, you are allowed to fly IFR in Golf without clearance or flight plan, it’s written in the FAR…finding Golf is your real problem as Echo is everywhere except in Alaska and some no man’s lands !

In France, you can fly IFR in Golf as you wish but you need an active I-FPL and radio contact with FIS/ATC above 3kft

What is very different in UK is that you can do it without FPL and without radio contact, also the fact that ATC bins your Golf FPL or block it’s distribution to ATC makes any further airspace joins more difficult, it’s near impossible to get pop-up IFR very high into TMA from Golf…

Only the capability to establish communication with ATC is required.

Not in the UK.

Because class G is uncontrolled, by default there are no clearances given and therefore none required. As a corollary, the loss of an IFR clearance when entering class G is logical.

Loss of a previous IFR clearance, yes, but what differs in the UK is that you cannot (in general) regain it afterwards unless you go through a process which may never deliver it. So that’s a trap. You can be forced out of CAS, and get stuck in hazardous wx or in airspace for which you don’t have detailed charts.

The more general requirement for VFR charts has always existed everywhere if doing Z/Y flight plans. The VFR parts need a VFR chart, and in most cases you don’t have a CAS clearance either.

so one can extrapolate that it is possible to do a DIY approach

That is legal everywhere where it isn’t specifically prohibited.

you are allowed to fly IFR in Golf without clearance or flight plan, it’s written in the FAR

That must be a recent change because the FAA busted people for IFR in G without a flight plan (basically an eye-witnessed departure straight into IMC).

Do you have a reference for that story? are you sure it was a departure into Golf not departure into Echo? was it under Part135/121?

The requirement for IFR clearance & IFR flight plan in US is about controlled airspace

Or maybe he was charged for reckless operation? not sure how they can use an eye witnesse when one is operating under Golf IFR in CAVOK…