A French pilot here posted a few times that he did that, and IIRC London Info hurriedly got him a fresh IFR clearance.
I doubt any UK pilot would do this because he would be too scared of the CAA 
I also recall some flights where it seemed that a new “handover boundary” exists at FL080. If you are leaving France at FL070 then you will enter UK airspace OCAS. But if you are leaving France at FL080 then the IFR clearance “must” be continuous (UK CAS base is FL075 out there). The gotcha there is that Lille, apparently already knowing about the LC non-acceptance, will descend you below FL075 I think you just have to refuse that descent.
Graham wrote:
A question. If you’re approaching the FIR bounday and Lille tell you to contact London 124.6, what happens if you reply “Negative, G-XX is on an IFR flightplan and requires handover to London Control to continue flight in Class A as planned” ?
I have done it once, when they asked to descend to FL70 and contact London Info
Edit: crossed with Peter
Honestly, you should fly above FL80 if you really care about Class A as that is where it starts, it’s not rocket science
Peter wrote:
I also recall some flights where it seemed that a new “handover boundary” exists at FL080. If you are leaving France at FL070 then you will enter UK airspace OCAS. But if you are leaving France at FL080 then the IFR clearance “must” be continuous (UK CAS base is FL075 out there). The gotcha there is that Lille, apparently already knowing about the LC non-acceptance, will descend you below FL075 I think you just have to refuse that descent.
Then I guess it’s the French ATCO making his or her own life as easy as possible. Why negotiate with LC when the other option is a bit of a descent and then you can give them London 124.6 knowing they’re crossing into Class G so no work required?
I’d guess the degree to which they might do this depends on how much of a descent is required and its context in the overall journey. If the final destination is, say, Liverpool, and the aircraft is at FL120 then descending them below FL75 to cross the FIR boundary is hard to justify. On the other hand if they’re going to somewhere in the south east then one can justify the descent below CAS on the grounds that they need to descend sometime soon anyway.
Sure.
And the last bit is very true, practically speaking.
But you can also see why nobody in the system is willing to talk about this
Graham wrote:
If the final destination is, say, Liverpool, and the aircraft is at FL120 then descending them below FL75 to cross the FIR boundary is hard to justify
I doubt that ever happened? you will be talking to ‘Paris Delta’ ATC (Rouen or CDG) at FL120 not ‘Lille Echo’ SIV (SIV is a sort of mix of ATC for IFR in Echo and FIS for VFR in Echo)
Paris ATC will hand you over to LTC automatically, not even God can stop you
Paris ATC don’t talk to London FIS or French SIV, I think there is some unpublished LOA on this, it takes some time to get pop-up IFR above FL120 in France and pop-up VFR above FL115 is slightly though than just ‘radar contact’
Paris ATC don’t talk to London FIS, I think there is some LOA on this
Yes, but what happens within France is that if you are flying below FL xxx you don’t get handed to Paris in the first place. It used to be FL120, then more recently FL100, not sure what it is currently as I am tending to fly EGKA-BILGO direct which saves a lot of time but needs VFR.
So France is as involved in this “system” as the UK.
It used to be FL120, then more recently FL100, not sure what it is currently
At FL100, you should be fine staying with General Delta ATC
The rule of thumb (just my observations) is that:
- If flying FL120 you have automatic handovers in LTA as airspace is very joined
- If you drop 2kft bellow to Echo TMA, they hand you to Echo TMA SIV
- If you drop 2kft bellow to Golf OCAS, they may keep you on frequency with them acting as FIS for Golf bellow
- If you drop 3kft bellow to Golf OCAS, they will route you back to ATS Airway (+FL65) and hand you to Echo SIV
Where it gets interesting is when you drop 3kft OCAS bellow Delta airspace and no SIV (Echo TMA or Echo ATS) to hand you to, you get told ‘your IFR FPL stops at X’ and ‘what are your intention?’ they take ETA of your landing but you don’t lose clearance or transponder code, you are free to get back into the system if weather is nasty at destination
Peter wrote:
So France is as involved in this “system” as the UK.
Surely Lille West has an agreement with London Control and London Info on how to handover traffic but looking at airspace structure you can guess what that looks like?
The mess is mainly on UK side though, you never lose further IFR airspace clearances in France after going into Golf as long as you stick to IFR PLN & ETA and IFR slots
German CAA recently at least tried to fine pilots who filed a flight plan that can not be legally flown that way (although it was accepted by Eurocontrol).
Is there also a fine for Eurocontrol / its employees if they accept a flight plan that they never intend to let the pilots fly?
Peter wrote:
Presumably the LBA didn’t actually succeed
They are well disconnected from flying with weak aviation department that I doubt they would succeed in pulling anything off in front of a court? however, they seem to run good police departments & legal departments though
