Menu Sign In Contact FAQ
Banner
Welcome to our forums

Is the UK legal to descend you below CAS and quietly remove the IFR clearance?

Say you file EDNY-EGKA, IFR.

Around DVR or LYD, you will get (from London Control) “cleared to descend out of controlled airspace, Basic Service on leaving”. Later they probably tell you “radar service terminated” and to set 7000 and hand you over to the next frequency.

Actually, your IFR clearance has never been cancelled. And ATC do not have the authority to cancel it. Only the pilot can do that. And you can proceed IFR in UK Class G; no problem.

BUT once you have left CAS you cannot go back into it, even if your onwards route would naturally take you back into it. So in effect your “enroute IFR clearance” (in the sense that every IFR pilot in the world would understand that phrase) has been removed.

Has anybody ever looked at the legality (w.r.t. ICAO) of this system?

It isn’t just a UK issue; you can get the same flying into a Class G airfield in say France. You cannot just level off after the last radar controller and fly on into some CAS.

So I think the debatable point is what presumption can or should ATC make about a “reasonable route” between where they terminate the service and your declared destination. In the UK this has sometimes been a long distance – could be 50nm or more.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think the big question is what your clearance is. When I depart from Germany to say France, I usually get cleared all the way to the destination aerodrome. I bet in the UK case I will be cleared only to some navaid/waypoint. What happens then is up to the clearance you get.

It isn’t just a UK issue; you can get the same flying into a Class G airfield in say France.

In France, they take care of you until you’ve landed. At least that’s my experience. There is no abrupt (and unexpected) service level change like in the UK. You can’t imagine how I was shocked when for the first time in my life, in the middle of an IFR flight I was told “radar service terminated, contact London Information”. I felt like my parents left me alone in the woods. Now I do see the benefits of the system although the “big sky principle” is still in collision with my German upbringing…

I bet in the UK case I will be cleared only to some navaid/waypoint. What happens then is up to the clearance you get.

You get “cleared to EGKA” in the departure clearance. The departure tower knows nothing about this stuff.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I bet in the UK case I will be cleared only to some navaid/waypoint.

I don’t know how it for flights within the UK, but flying from Germany to the UK on an “I” flightplan one usually gets cleared to destination. In my understanding, as long as I don’t cancel my IFR flight, I am still bound to follow my flightplan, whatever radar service the give me – or don’t. It’s like flying to an airfield with airspace “F” and an instrument approach procedure in Germany. At some point during the procedure the controller will say “radar service terminated, call Schwäbisch Hall Info on…” and you are on your own.

EDDS - Stuttgart

I don’t know how it for flights within the UK, but flying from Germany to the UK on an “I” flightplan one usually gets cleared to destination. In my understanding, as long as I don’t cancel my IFR flight, I am still bound to follow my flightplan, whatever radar service the give me – or don’t.

It’s the same in Sweden. You are cleared to your destination on departure and that’s it. You can pass in and out of controlled airspacThe UK seems to be unique in more or less having separate systems in controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

BUT once you have left CAS [in the UK] you cannot go back into it, even if your onwards route would naturally take you back into it. So in effect your “enroute IFR clearance” (in the sense that every IFR pilot in the world would understand that phrase) has been removed.

Has anybody ever looked at the legality (w.r.t. ICAO) of this system?

I understand that UK ATC usually tells traffic in class G airspace to “remain clear of controlled airspace”. Isn’t the reason just what you say? The original clearance could bring the aircraft into CAS again, but with the instruction to remain clear, that part of the clearance is effectively suspended.

ESKC (Uppsala/Sundbro), Sweden

I understand that UK ATC usually tells traffic in class G airspace to “remain clear of controlled airspace”.

Sometimes that happens, but IME it is very unusual (from London Control which is usually the relevant ATC unit). What you get is an instruction to descend out of CAS, but they don’t say you cannot re-enter it.

There is, in my case anyway, a certain amount of “tactics” involved with this. For example if I am asked to descend out of CAS and I still have 50nm to go, especially over the sea, I might set -200fpm (calculated to reach the destination airport with a linear descent) Sometimes they don’t like this and request something much faster, but often I hear nothing. But this works with coastal airports only (e.g. EGKA).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

understanding, as long as I don’t cancel my IFR flight, I am still bound to follow my flightplan, whatever radar service the give me – or don’t

In my understanding, it is not a question of service level, but of airspace. One cannot be bound to any clearance whilst in uncontrolled airspace. That’s also why I think that “cleared to destination” when headed to a UK airfield in class G does not make sense.

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

That’s also why I think that “cleared to destination” when headed to a UK airfield in class G does not make sense.

It is a ritual phrase used in IFR, no more.

The whole business of the whole-route clearance is ambiguous anyway.

The only scenario where you really are cleared to fly the whole route is in the ICAO lost comms case. Set 7600 and hope to not get shot down

All the time you are in contact with ATC, they are entitled to give you directions that differ from your filed route, and you don’t have the right to refuse – except due weather, fuel, etc etc.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Exactly my thoughts. And that’s also why I am a bit skeptic about those fantasy routings sometimes created by the Autorouter. One just cannot insist on flying these, even if “cleared flight planned route”…

Mainz (EDFZ) & Egelsbach (EDFE), Germany

I am sure Achim and Tom will explain better but they are not “fantasy routings”; they are just routings within the CAS boundaries, which are validated by Eurocontrol. My experience is that they work fine. ATC move you around anyway, within those CAS boundaries, for separation.

In an ATC radar-control environment, you are no more and no less entitled to file those routings than any other routings, and you are no less likely to fly the filed route than if you filed a classic route straight off the IFR enroute chart. In any case, ATC will try to give you shortcuts which keep you just within the CAS boundaries, and if they don’t you should be asking for them. The practical problem is that unless you are running the IFR chart as a moving map, you don’t really know whether asking for Shortcut X is going to be reasonable.

You cannot “insist” on anything.

There are some issues with UK airspace, where Eurocontrol will validate routes submitted for “silly” low levels, and some pilots who are totally new to European IFR have tried filing them, and in one case I know of, even flying them (across the UK at FL040). I think this will be addressed soon, but in any case you can solve it well enough by using FL090/FL100 as the minimum level, which has always been the standard advice for UK airspace for assured NATS acceptance of the FP (unless you know the SRD hacks, some of which don’t even validate by Eurocontrol……..).

Last Edited by Peter at 15 Apr 19:46
Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom
150 Posts
Sign in to add your message

Back to Top