Mooney_Driver wrote:
Germany is dependent on Russias Gas and they need to pay for it.
Which was BTW deliberately set up by chancellor Kohl in order to create a mutual dependency between the then Soviets and Western Germany. You can’t bite the hand that feeds you. It’s working as intended only at the wrong time. Or maybe not? Nobody knows what if. Also the slow internet connection over which I’m typing this is a direct consequence of his corrupt politics. But don’t get me started.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Take away Swift and they can not. That is why they are balking. I agree that does not work, they have to step up.
Problem is: It’s not so simple as it looks. For starters this can only be done once. Then there is this: https://www.protocol.com/policy/russia-swift-sanctions-ukraine
But it’s all only speculation and observation of what can be observed. No one knows what really drives the decisions of the players in this conflict except the players themselves. We laugh about the obvious propaganda of the Russians and feel superior because our own leader’s propaganda isn’t so obvious. The Russian’s probably isn’t so obvious as well but we all fall for the obvious stuff. Also KC135s at the Ukrainian border? We see the exact number of airplanes there which someone wants us to see. Or does anyone really believe USAF pilots have forgotten how to switch off their ADS-B?
Of course they’ve not forgotten. We see what we see, which is enough to make it obvious that there’s much more which we don’t see.
PROB50+ there are some black ops going on. Or an elaborate bluff to make the Russians think we’re interfering, but that’d be a risky game if you take @Mooney_Driver’s attitude to things.
Which was BTW deliberately set up by chancellor Kohl in order to create a mutual dependency between the then Soviets and Western Germany
The big mistake here was to ignore history: Russia always kept trade and war completely separate. They will trade with you while nuking you, perfectly happily. And why not? Why be sentimental, or vindictive?
Having said that… just seen a video in which a Russian tank is driving right over a car with somebody in it, just for amusement. Sick. Probably worse than 1968.
Peter wrote:
The ultimate sanction has just been imposed.Devastating.
LOL, but I’m sure of all the sanctions, this is the only one that really hurts Russia and the Russian people.
172driver wrote:
Indeed. Shows Europe for what it is. Nothing.
Ukraine and Russia is also Europe if you didn’t know. I sometimes wonder what is worst. US/UK right wing and rather unbelievable ignorant arrogance or Russian aggression. No offense and no pointers to anyone here. It’s just something I wonder about 
If we look at the history, Ukraine has not exactly been the sharpest and most stable knife in the drawer politically speaking. This doesn’t excuse Putin of course, but that is a different matter. Ukraine has had all the time in the world to build a strong nation. They have it all. A huge country with lots of natural resources, a large population, lots of industry. Nothing here points to a country that needs NATO for it’s independence and freedom.
As it turned out, that would have been the only thing that would have helped them in the end, but I mean… It’s not entirely without reason Ukraine has met some cold shoulders from the west. Putin being the devil doesn’t make Ukraine a place littered with angels.
What is done is done. History is history and nothing more. Ukraine has still not fallen and what happens in the crystal ball is anyone’s guess. However, Putin has made it clear that those of us who can stay together must stay together. It’s the only important thing really. The world changed a couple of days ago. We suddenly have super aggressive despot with tons of nukes right here in Europe. He is backed up by an increasingly stronger despotic regime farther east. With Soviet there were a certain logic to the craziness. With Tsar Putin the only logic is more power to Tsar Putin.
Peter wrote:
Having said that… just seen a video in which a Russian tank is driving right over a car with somebody in it, just for amusement. Sick. Probably worse than 1968.
If it is the video I saw it was fact checked?? and found to be a Ukrainian vehicle chasing some undercover Russians. Whether that is true or not who knows?
LeSving wrote:
He is backed up by an increasingly stronger despotic regime farther east. With Soviet there were a certain logic to the craziness. With Tsar Putin the only logic is more power to Tsar Putin.
Very nice and logical post @LeSving. Always two sides to a story, in modern times 15 sides at times.
Yes one has to be cautious about any source shown, but @Beechbaby when disputing here an information posted by @Peter without even knowing to what information he refers you really could present more of what you know. Because if not it sounds like you were trying to just twist what is posted here.
UdoR wrote:
Because if not it sounds like you were trying to just twist what is posted here.
Sorry but that is ridiculous and I again re-iterate just because something does not suit ‘’the narrative;’’ does not mean it is not accurate or relevent.
It really is like being in a kindergarten at times…
US/UK right wing and rather unbelievable ignorant arrogance or Russian aggression
You can sleep soundly, LeSving, because both US and UK “right wing” movements are irrelevant in the wider picture. Trump didn’t last long, and the UKIP got sent to oblivion ages ago.
It really is like being in a kindergarten at times…
For that eventuality, I recommend some other forum; there is always FB, twitter, instagram… This thread was set up for OT posts, and brief political digressions. Unfortunately the current situation has taken it over. I am ok with it for now because this really is big.
Fortunately Russia is not doing as well as they hoped by now. The estimated 15BN/day is a cost which they can’t afford for long, but the sanctions will cost them way more.
The estimated 15BN/day is a cost which they can’t afford for long, but the sanctions will cost them way more.
Is it really that expensive? Or are those costs that would be incurred anyway? For example soldier salaries will be paid if they are in barracks or in the front line.
I suspect the biggest problem for Putin with it dragging on, is that it gives more time for the people of Russia to see the horror of what is being done in their name to their neighbors and how they are being seen I the rest of the world. That might very well turn domestic opinion again Putin in a way that might not happen of it was all over before the public found out.
Young people are very connected. They will see the reaction on social media. They will notice when nobody will play their soccer team, when their F1 tickets are useless, when their Champion League final is gone. With time we can hope that the people of Russia turn against their own leaders.
Also the longer it goes on, the more international pressure that will come. China will be forced to choose between their economy and their support of Russia as sanctions get tougher and sanctions are ratcheted up, and we got an indication at the UN last night now they will choose.
Also the longer it goes on, the more effect the existing sanctions will have.
Putin needs a quick victory but the Ukrainisns are doing their best to deny him that.
