Ibra wrote:
I am sure any IFR pilot would love to know if they are in Echo or Golf when crossing Sweden/Denmark at low levels
I counter that. I would hazard a guess that 99% of IFR pilots flying through Denmark never asked themselves the question whether they are currently in E or G. And most of them don’t really know the difference anyway.
Again, IFR, as opposed to IFR in the UK, requires constant radio contact with ATC in other countries. So even if you are moving from G toeards a really thin “bar” of class E and then back to G… ATC is there to tell the pilot if they have to change course. But the pilot really doesn’t have to care.
These class E airways are merely an option for pilots who want to be in controlled airspace (and be separated from other IFR aircraft) to get this….just don’t accept any shortcuts and fly along your filed route along the airways, whatever the detour may be. Others may chose otherwise, and accept the offered direct to the FIR boundary (which they get right after entering Denmark)…
boscomantico wrote:
I don’t understand. For me, setting the toggle to “off” makes ALL the class E boundary lines disappear.
I meant the other way around. You can’t make all class E appear by setting the toggle to “on”.
boscomantico wrote:
I counter that. I would hazard a guess that 99% of IFR pilots flying through Denmark never asked themselves the question whether they are currently in E or G. And most of them don’t really know the difference anyway.
As a pilot who frequently fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace, I most definitely would ask myself that question and I certainly hope that every instrument rated pilot would know the difference.
Even with the very high service level offered to uncontrolled IFR by ATS in the Nordic countries, it is still the pilot’s responsibility e.g. to get permission to cross any R/D/etc. areas that happen to be on your route when flying in class G.
As a pilot who frequently fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace, I most definitely would ask myself that question and I certainly hope that every instrument rated pilot would know the difference.
But you are a very savvy, very „conscious“ pilot. The very end of a spectrum.
Also, it likely depends where the pilot is from. In countries with a lot of class Golf, and where IFR in class Golf is a thing, pilots are likely more conscious about which airspace class they are in. But IFR pilots from Germany, Austria or Switzerland are very different. Enroute, they often have no clue what class of airspace they are in. In fact, they like flying IFR because then they „don‘t have to worry about airspaces any more“. That‘s what they say!
I meant the other way around. You can’t make all class E appear by setting the toggle to “on”.
Indeed. And as I said, for a VFR mapping app, it makes sense to not display some of class E in certain countries. I agree with you that it becomes a bit unclear when they only show parts of it. AWYs are one thing. TMAs are another. And these „filler bits“ are probably neither one or the other, bit are shown. A difficult thing to get perfect for everybody.
But again: it‘s the same on the holy IGN chart.
@Airborne_Again I don’t think you need permission to transit “D -danger zones” except perhaps in the UK.
A few months ago in Aviasport there was an interesting article by a prominent international lawyer who specialises in aviation law, on this very subject.
Off topic:- she wrote about when heavy fines and other penalties can be justified and when they can not or should not be applied. In other words, the burden off proof which needs to be shown to justify penalising a pilot.
This stuff really surprises me. I thought all satnav apps could display all airspace classes, with declutter options of course.
Hiding Class E on the basis that your customers don’t have an IR is just arrogant. Doesn’t Class E need a clearance for VFR at night (at least in France)?
gallois wrote:
I don’t think you need permission to transit “D -danger zones” except perhaps in the UK.
That’s certainly true but I would avoid them anyway unless I had a clear understanding of the danger — and preferably in VMC.
IMO Skydemon is pretty good at providing the frequencies and airspace to contact if one plans and follows a route on it. Last week I would have questioned some of the frequencies it was giving but it was remarkably accurate.
But you have to be careful how you set up the airspace altitudes that are hidden ny declutter. Last week a French pilot wrote in the REX how not setting them correctly he entered CAS without permission,
I agree to some extent with the opinion that class E doesn’t need to be shown on a VFR tool because you usually don’t. need a clearance and only IFR is controlled and separated i. Class E
But class E is still controlled airspace and the French AIP says, or used to say that VFR does not need to report crossing class E providing the visibility is above the levels set out for class E airspace. (I don’t know if that line is still there since EASA came into being.)
I guess it’s a matter of knowing what is in the chart/tool and what is not? however, SkyDemon is still the best tool out there for VFR, while the boss is impossible to influence when it comes to things that are nice to have but he has a good idea of the compromises he needs to make to sell a “VFR software for the mass”, the product also works for “UK IFR flyers” who are not based in airports that are connected to airways as well as “low IFR flyers” who wants to keep extra situational awareness of what is around (you know things like terrain, traffic, airspace to watch for and grass strips and fields for emergencies) rather than just taking ATC headings or following GPS directs
Someone looking to fly high VFR across Europe, may need to dig more than just VFR charts or SkyDemon screens and unlike IFR they may not have a smooth ride if the planning turns out to be sub-standard…
