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Flying high in VFR in European countries

See above.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Shanwick wrote:

There is no French VFR ban above FL115. I regularly fly at FL185 in France VFR

But not in the Paris FIR, see per Peters link. Me, too, they dropped out below, asking two times to assure I’m flying VFR and they told me they cannot let me fly there. It was only for some 20nm and then I could climb again.

Germany

In France, VFR in Delta above FL115 (called LTA, low traffic area) is only banned in Paris FIR square of 200nm*200nm, it’s a NOTAM that Peter shared previously, outside of that box you just have to talk to the right ATC who owns it for clearance (not some low level FIR FIS or SIV they are not ATC of those blocks and will tell you to get lost), ENR6.1 give you Frequencies of ATC who controls these

The other way around if departing from a big controlled airport (e.g. Lille, Nantes, Brest, Nice), is to ask airport ATC for FL125-FL195 on your first contact, they will get you something

There is no one in that band, it’s mostly about asking the right person (or at least know who you are talking to and what he can do for you )

It’s this guy !

Not this guy ! (IGN VFR chart does not show CAS above FL115, it’s written somewhere in the chart)

Not these !

Last Edited by Ibra at 14 Sep 09:09
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

In Germany you just tell Flight Information, that you request >FL100 and after they coordinated with Radar they’ll hand you over to them with the appropriate frequency.

EDLE

That’s the one @Ibra. I think I referred yo it in another thread. Download on the SIA website but can be a bit slow. The 1:1000000 maps in the VFR flight guide also show much of this, but it is difficult, as it is on many charts to find what area that Notam refers to. I have a challenge out to many pilots to show me where the borders of the Notam actually are on any normal VFR map easily accessed by a VFR pilot.
The one you have shown is really a lower airspace IFR chart.

France

I wonder if anyone in French ATC knows the reason for this VFR ban. Maybe @Guillaume?

Legend, from years ago, is that it was done to stop King Airs flying VFR at FL195 (which is viable fuel flow wise in a KA; would not be in a jet) and not paying the IFR route charges.

It is a major factor for UK pilots flying down through France and wanting to remain VMC on top. A plane with a decent range can fly right across France, Switzerland, Austria, to somewhere in former Yugoslavia. So you can be sure of reasonable wx before departing from home (the IR image is almost enough) which is not the case if you are stopping along the way. I used to do those flights, always VMC on top, but I don’t remember seeing that FL115 limit back then (2004-2005 timeframe, before I got the IR).

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I think it’s because Class A & P/R-area are bellow? if you ever have to descend or avoid weather? and also that Paris CTRL ATC don’t do FIS to VFR OCAS (they gladly offer FIS for IFR OCAS), exceptionally, they may do FIS for NVFR when there is no one to talk to by midnight…

Did anyone managed VFR transit above London at FL200 calling London Control? or even pop-up IFR transit between 3kft-19kft over London in LTMA from OCAS? I got a “pop-up IFR” from Gatwick once right on departure after PAR+ILS practice but I was limited to 3000ft in Class A back to North Weald

PS: one lady ATC who used to operate at Rouen told me some funny stories about UK pilots (IMCr holders? MEP pilots? +2T guys?) poping on her screen asking for “VFR transits” which were granted while few airliners were grounded in low tick ceiling by the tower, maybe Paris ATC have no appetite for that?

Last Edited by Ibra at 15 Sep 07:50
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Did anyone managed VFR transit above London at FL200 calling London Control?

Never AFAIK.

or pop-up IFR transit from OCAS?

Never with the LTMA or with any “London Control” Class A. You can generally get it in the distant jungles of Borneo i.e. in the Class A near Exeter EGTE; best to go N of EGTE (TIVER) because Cardiff own the air up to FL160 while S of it (TINAN) London own it and they don’t like clearing into it regardless of zero traffic.

One lady ATC who used to operate at Rouen told me some funny stories about UK pilots (IMCr holders) poping on the screen asking for “VFR transits” which were granted while airliners were grounded in low tick ceiling by the tower, maybe Paris ATC have no appetite for that?

I remember her rants well from one now largely defunct “beat them up” site She used to post as “frog_atc”. She looked like a certain notorious UK pilot (with a fake IR) in disguise and when I questioned her bonafides she recorded a special ATIS message at her tower which could be checked by calling it with a phone (back in the days when you could get ATIS by phone). She ranted about UK PPLs flying in IMC in France (prob99 true) while desperately trying to get their oxygen connected up (prob99 bollox). Her present occupation is well known and she’s probably good fun However if Brits were the problem, why not ban VFR above FL115 in all of France, because arguably the best bits are on the west coast (La Rochelle etc) and that is away from “Paris area”. This VFR ban is an own-goal for France and its GA community – even if the vast majority of present-day VFR is very low level aeroclub traffic.

Administrator
Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

I am sure the story is true with good sense of humor rather than critics, I have to say the person is very down to earth and very enjoyable when it come to flying

The Delta above Paris could have been reclassified as Charlie and managed like Toulouse/Nice Charlie where VFR/IFR are separated but as I mentioned there is no ATC with FIS hat who manages as there is not much demand since SERA introduction: they are no longer allowed to clear VFR in Alpha TMA bellow general Delta…

Last Edited by Ibra at 15 Sep 09:22
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Ibra wrote:

(not some low level FIR FIS or SIV they are not ATC of those blocks and will tell you to get lost) (…) Not these !
I can’t confirm that. The regional FIR FIS like Strasbourg or Bâle will hand you over to Reims Control, as soon as you want to climb above their airspace. No problems at all, as most pilots are already in contact with the regional FIS when flying in France.

Italy works like Germany: Just ask FIS and they’ll coordinate and hand you over to Radar, except for class A airspace of course. Nonetheless, Italian ATC might clear VFR on higher altitudes also through class A, in case you’re already inside CAS (class D) before. I’ve been cleared into the Milano/Brera class A two times already, coming from class D airspace, once at FL80 and once at FL120 from Brescia into the Swiss Alps. Fore sure there is no guarantee and you might need luck with the controller, but I know also several Swiss pilots how flew through the entire Brera CTA class A above FL100 while VFR.
Switzerland
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