Piper PA28 Owner/Pilots of EuroGA

Good thread Snoopy

First PA28 flight was in a -181 in 2007 while doing my PPL. Compared to the Robins I was used to it was heavy on the controls. A long time later the larger cabin and baggage door was a big improvement for family use (carseats, pushchairs) compared to a DR2xx/DR400.

I have just over 100h on PA28s, roughly ¾ RT201, ¼ 181, and a handful on 161, 180, 235.

I’ve owned an Arrow IV for almost 2 years, bought from someone I knew slightly at a local airfield, after months of looking at looking at different types in different places. It’s an ex commercial trainer so high hours but well looked after. So far added 8.33, mode S and led landing light. Next is gps, engine monitor, maybe speed mods. The T tail took a few landings to get used to, but I like it.

Nicest flight: going as a family to visit new towns in rural Burgundy in the aéroclub Archer.

Scariest experience was during night training on a -161: doing a 180 on the runway I found the brakes were rubbish and I ran through the traffic cones blocking a closed taxiway.

Like: no vices, overall it’s a good compromise speed/comfort/payload/range/economy/complexity.

Dislike: could be a bit faster. I found the -235 too nose-heavy. Remember to centre the nosewheel on a crosswind landing.

Highest elevation 2683ft, shortest strip 730m, highest altitude FL105, fastest groundspeed 173kts, longest flight 1h40.

The PA28 type has a large variation in performance in the same airframe, e.g. from a 140 to a Dakota or Turbo Arrow.

I’ve only done one flight so far, in a PA-28-181 Archer II . I’ve only been flying 2-seaters and am looking to upgrade to a 4-seater. So I flew the DR400 and PA28 back to back, to see which I like best.

I have to say, the Robin pretty much won me over, at least from the pilot point of view. Great visibility, great control feel.

The PA28 is probably the better touring machine though, with the dedicated luggage space and being more stable. What I didn’t like though was that the controls were very heavy. I’m fairly small built, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I found myself constantly using trim, since pretty much all pitch forces were too much to my liking at cruise speed. This particular plane also has an autopilot, so maybe that adds some friction and control stiffness ?
Anyway I found it too unconfortable due to the control stiffness. I don’t think I have enough power to overcome it if the trim somehow gets stuck..

What are your experiences, do you also find the controls on the Archer rather stiff? I don’t have much to compare against, just the DR400 as a 4-seater, and C152 and DA20 2-seaters. I did fly a PA20-160 Cadet once on a discovery flight, but I don’t remember being this stiff. The plane was not heavily loaded, was light on fuel and just 2 POB.

Hmm, something must be very wrong ,either with that particular airplane (unlikely), or your technique, or your perception. Archer IIs are easy and delightful to fly. Medium light on the controls.

but I found myself constantly using trim, since pretty much all pitch forces were too much to my liking at cruise speed.

Don‘t understand. Aircraft should always be trimmed.

This particular plane also has an autopilot, so maybe that adds some friction and control stiffness ?

No. Unless the AP was activated, it can‘t have any influence.

Anyway I found it too unconfortable due to the control stiffness. I don’t think I have enough power to overcome it if the trim somehow gets stuck..

An aircraft wouldn‘t pass certification if that were the case.

What are your experiences, do you also find the controls on the Archer rather stiff?

See above. No.

I did fly a PA20-160 Cadet

Just a detail, bit if it was a Cadet, it was a PA28-161. A nitty gritty detail you might think, but PA28-160s are much older and have different wing, which makes them fly different.

andy_flyer wrote:

What I didn’t like though was that the controls were very heavy. I’m fairly small built, so maybe that has something to do with it, but I found myself constantly using trim, since pretty much all pitch forces were too much to my liking at cruise speed. This particular plane also has an autopilot, so maybe that adds some friction and control stiffness ?

I agree with @boscomantico that something was massively wrong with that flight.

Every plane needs to be “trimmed constantly”. That is why you have trim. If you fly out of trim, clearly the controls will feel awkward.

andy_flyer wrote:

I don’t think I have enough power to overcome it if the trim somehow gets stuck..

I do wonder if you were fighting the Autopilot or had a massively out of trim condition which you were unable to rectify.

I would suggest you look at this with a CFI very carefully before you attempt your next flight. Either the airplane has a serious defect or your training has had rather serious deficiencies.

I wonder which aircraft caused the discussion. Short while ago I was flying a friends -161 to maintenance for courtesy and it drove me nuts. When talking to the shop, they told me it was scheduled for engine maintenance, because the power would constantly meander … Yes, a slowly breathing power can be annoying to hell.

I notice on my Warrior that the elevator feels very light after maintenance and becomes imperceptibly heavier as the hours go by, until another lube-up highlights the difference.

@andy_flyer, it’s been a long time since I was in a PA-28 of any variety so I can’t comment on elevator forces on the type, but I can say that I’ve flown several other common types that have control forces so high I wouldn’t buy one, or enjoy flying one regularly. An early Cessna 180 and 1990s Mooney were like that for me. A C-172 Reims Rocket was also heavy in pitch, more so than the two seat Cessnas, but not so heavy as e.g. the Mooney which was like arm wrestling to me. Early Piper Cubs are also a bit like that, before the issue was addressed in the Super Cub. I’ve heard people describe the Diamond DA-40 as highly responsive when to me its pleasant enough but responds in roll like a big, gentle sailplane given its long span. Early Citabrias despite being aerobatic are likewise lethargic in roll, at least until the factory put spades on the ailerons to lighten them up a bit.

Other people find all these types perfectly acceptable for their use, but I prefer light and responsive controls, even if that means there is less stability in cruise flight. I want to be able to e.g. change speed and then make a minor trim adjustment to remove the out of trim control force, not have pitch forces that force the use of trim in process, before I’ve reached the target condition. In the roll axis I prefer to fly with my finger tips to correct for turbulence in cruise, not my biceps.

I’m guessing your observations just reflect the comparison with what you’ve been flying previously, and now find you prefer. Fly another Piper if you’re really interested in the type, and otherwise just fly what you enjoy flying. I’ve found it really important to ‘try before you buy’ and not assume everything is like you’re accustomed to flying… because it isn’t.

Silvaire wrote:

… but I prefer light and responsive controls, even if that means there is less stability in cruise flight. I want to be able to e.g. change speed and then make a minor trim adjustment to remove the out of trim control force, not have pitch forces that force the use of trim in process, before I’ve reached the target condition.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this. I also prefer to fly like this, and have only been flying light 2-seaters so far. So going to a somewhat stiffer 4-seater was very different than what I was used to. I didn’t have a problem with the Robin though. @Capitaine also said above that he needed to get used to the heaviness of the controls when moving from the Robin to the PA28. So that is a confirmation of what I experienced flying the Robin and PA28 back to back. There are downsides of course regarding stability – with the Robin I constantly needed to make small adjustments, whereas the PA28 just stayed where I put it.

I would like to try out one scenario in the PA28 (with a CFI of course) and leave the trim at cruise setting, then try to fly a pattern and flare – I’m curious if the control forces would turn into a real problem in such a scenario. Probably not for someone with a lot of strength, but for me … I don’t know.