Piper PA28 Owner/Pilots of EuroGA

Patrick wrote:

Still, I never really felt I fully mastered the Archer upon landing – I preferred the Cessnas in how they handled. Specifically, I found the Archers to be so much more “floaty”.

If you surveyed the average club instruction, the Warrior and Archer are briefed to be at 70 to 75 KIAS on final approach. In fact the at the threshold speed of the Warrior is 63 KIAS at maximum gross. 75 KIAS being approximately 20% higher than POH recommended speed in normal procedures. The at threshold speed would be a function of the square root of the actual weight to max weight. With two POB and fuel at the tabs the at threshold speed would be 58 KIAS. 75 KIAS being 30% above this.

If flown at recommended speed the PA28 Warrior/Archer should not exhibit a tendency to float and is a nice landing aircraft.

As mentioned earlier, and as you confirm @Patrick, the slab wing Arrow ii is an excellent short field performer, largely because it is a predictable aircraft to spot land. The roll rate on the Arrow ii is a delight and is a very nice handling design. The Arrow iii has slightly ground hugging tendencies compared to the Arrow ii, hence perhaps the FB comments. The taper wing and extra empty weight mean it has less get up and go than a ii, but probably better performance above FL80 due to the higher aspect ratio of the taper wing.

How long have you flown the PA28? Since i bought it in 2012.

Which version? – 1975 PA28-180 Archer (long body, hershey bar wing)

How many hours so far? – The aircraft has about 3100hrs.

How and when did you find it/buy it? – 2012, Denmark, Planecheck

What’s the history of the plane? – I bought it as a first plane in 2012. It needed a good bit of corrosion removal from the bottom of the fuselage and even replacement of some panels when i bought it, but no really big problems ever since beside the usual small squawks now and then.
As usual with planes of this age, corrosion is something to keep an eye on. It has 1 recorded accident (runway excursion in 1980).

What would you tell every pilot who will fly a Pa28 – nice to know / need to know?! – Very easy to fly and land, but dont go overspeed on short field landings – it will float. Really good allrounder that can legally carry 4 adults and go short runways (but no always at the same time). Perfect for a first plane IMHO.

What was your nicest flight in a Pa28? – Probably LIDE-EDNY via the Gafor route over LSZS.
Landing in LIRJ and flight around Corsica brings good memories :)

What was your scariest experience? – Not really that scary, but memorable: Flying through some frontal weather on Estonian/Latvian border over the sea. The climb rate was 1000+fpm while at idle and doing Vy climb at full power in the next moment with climb rate ca 0fpm. I was VMC, but the squall line on my right was too close for comfort.
Almost hit 3 wild boars running over the runway, when landing @ EEKA once.
Pulling the mixture control instead of carb heat (i entered some light rain) during flight was a thing to remember from the early days of flying it (thats a classic i guess).

What do you like about it? – Reliability, cost of upkeep, Easy to fly with no bad habits.

What do you dislike about it? – The leaky cabin door (although i have fixed it now). Some older models have only stall warning light, but no alarm.

Shortest strip? – Nothing special. 570m grass.

Highest Altitude? – FL100

Fastest Groundspeed? – 180kts level flight with good tailwind, somewhere over Germany.

Longest flight? – 400nm per leg or 1200nm from home base with fuel stops (EETN-LFKJ)

RobertL18C wrote:

If you surveyed the average club instruction, the Warrior and Archer are briefed to be at 70 to 75 KIAS on final approach. In fact the at the threshold speed of the Warrior is 63 KIAS at maximum gross. 75 KIAS being approximately 20% higher than POH recommended speed in normal procedures. The at threshold speed would be a function of the square root of the actual weight to max weight. With two POB and fuel at the tabs the at threshold speed would be 58 KIAS. 75 KIAS being 30% above this.

You have to be slightly careful with this kind of calculation as you should calculate using CAS rather than IAS.

My first Pa28 check-out was 1.15 on 5/3/1992. When that business went bust, I and 14 others bought the Warrior. I part-owned her for a year. I had a Jodel DR1050 share at the same time. I put it up for sale, and after a while with no interest, I put them both up. The Pa28 share sold quickly.
Most of my Pa28-161 and Hershey Bar -181 has been renting from Grand Junction, Colorado, flying west of the Rockies over Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming.
The highest I’ve flown in/out of is Gunnison, 7600’, in a -161.
I like the Pa28. The Hershey Bar -181 feels particularly stable. All have a solid feel to them. I’ve tried to think of something I don’t like but without success. Maybe the higher maintenance cost compared to an LAA Permit type.
I’ve flown about the same hours in C172s, and much prefer the Pa28.

RobertL18C wrote:

As mentioned earlier, and as you confirm @Patrick, the slab wing Arrow ii is an excellent short field performer, largely because it is a predictable aircraft to spot land. The roll rate on the Arrow ii is a delight and is a very nice handling design. The Arrow iii has slightly ground hugging tendencies compared to the Arrow ii, hence perhaps the FB comments. The taper wing and extra empty weight mean it has less get up and go than a ii, but probably better performance above FL80 due to the higher aspect ratio of the taper wing.

I always found it very interesting to see how well those planes really do in terms of payload. When i was looking in 2008/9 the first plane I looked at was a Cherokee 180 (pic above someplace) which had an empty weight of 629 kg and MTOW of 1089kg so a whopping 460 kg useful load. Full fuel payload still was 323 kg, which is very nice. With 36 USG (filler neck) this would mean a payload of 363 kgs.

The -140 I looked at was 610 kg empty vs a 975 kg MTOW leaving 365 kg of payload, which for a 150 hp airplane is also quite good. With full fuel (50 USG), payload remains 228 kg, up to the fillerneck (36 USG) it would have roughly 270 kg of payload. So I guess there is a reason why the 140 does not have a baggage compartment and a straight wall right behind the aft seats (though one can buy an after market aft bulkhead which gives a bit more space behind the seats and a hat rack, which I’d find very desirable for that plane).

What is interesting is that at least based on the POH, the -140 has a slightly better range than the -180. The -140 with full 50 USG can scratch 650 NM @ 55% with about 100 kts cruise, almost having a ridiculous endurance of over 7 hours (plus 45’). Me, I’d like an Autopilot for that kind of trip though. With 65% it can still do close to 600 NM.

What I found optimistic are the book speeds, even though it would really take a TAS indicator like an Aspen or similar to really find out. The -140 is supposed to do 117 KTAS @ 8000 ft at max power (apprx 75%) with 8.8 GPH fuel flow and about 110 KTAS @65% with 7.5 GPH. Long range cruise would be at 55% with 103 KTAS @ a measly 6.5 gph allowing for best power. The airplane I flew did definitly not reach this kind of speeds so it would be interesting to get some real world figures from those who have the means to provide them. POH’s from that period are all quite a handful to “translate” into real world figures.

@Airborne_Again fair point about CAS and IAS. The POH table shows IAS at slower speeds under reads CAS by a few knots (so on the safe side), and with Flaps 40 CAS equals IAS at 60 knots.

@Mooney_Driver when the Warrior emerges from hibernation I will try and run a four way GPS TAS test at ISA 6,000’. Mine has the Knots2U kit, and on the test run it will be on the light side, so not representative of book performance. I also have the wheel fairings, but not the latest style which are slightly more streamlined. Mine indicates 110-115 knots at 70-75% power. I am expecting at 6,000 it will still indicate 110 knots, which is around 108 KCAS (at higher speeds IAS over reads by a few knots), and should work out at around 120-125 KTAS. With the later wheel fairings it should be 125 KTAS. An Arrow at 65% is around 133-135 KTAS so not much gain for the RG, but the CS would help at higher altitudes.

Many fond memories! I had a share in PA28-140 (A Cherokee with the high compression pistons to make 160hp), which I bought before I finished my PPL. What a gateway to great adventures! I have posted some of these photos before, but here they are again to spice up the thread. I would do it again in a second.

How long have you flown the PA28?

• I flew it for about 3 years right after I got my license.

Which version?

• 1969 PA28-140 (160hp). Hersey bar wing, manual flaps, overhead trim, throttle quadrant. 1359lbs empty, 2150lbs gross. 50g fuel or (36g to the tabs)

How many hours so far?

• 350 hours.

How and when did you find it/buy it?

• 1/10 share from a notice board (7 of the other members did not fly it!)

Price?

• about $6500cad or £3700.

What’s the history of the plane?

• Ex trainer… perhaps 8500k hours. It had been in this group for about 20 years at much lower usage.

What would you tell every pilot who will fly a Pa28 – nice to know / need to know?!

• Fuel it up and go. A very honest airplane. Great economical flying!

Any memorable anecdotes?

• Taking off on a downhill muddy grass slope with the parking brake partially on. I did not realise it at the time, but was quite suprised how short we stopped when we landed on the pavement with the brake still on.

What was your nicest flight in a Pa28?

• Many, see pictures!

What was your scariest experience?

• Learning not to mess around with IMC whilst flying in the mountains.
• Not really scary, as the grass airstrip I discovered this on was very long. I was doing a soft field take-off with four people on board (close to gross). You can get the nose high enough (just before a tailstrike) that the plane will not accelerate any further whilst in the ground roll. You have accelerate with a lower angle of attack when heavy. When lighter, you can have a higher angle of attack and still become airborne; obviously flattening the angle of attack as you pick up speed before leaving the ground effect.

What do you like about it?

• For what it is, pretty much everything.
• Nice that the factory tires including the nosewheel are wider than the Cessna equivalent.
• Easy parts availibility (e.g. my mechanic had least two PA28’s being parted out…)

What do you dislike about it?

• Door seals which let water in when parked outside (ours was hangared, but on a few overnight trips in the rain you could find water inside).
• The 160hp was perfect as a two seater, or a short hop with four lighter passengers. If intended to own a Cherokee again for a long duration, I would seek out a 180hp one. That being said, if there was a very nice 160hp one for sale I would not pass it up.
• It didn’t really bother me, but it did seem to feel that the C172’s that I flew had a slightly better glide ratio.

Shortest strip? Highest Elevation?

• I didn’t really push this, it is not a bushplane. But certainly a few at 300 to 400 metres at sea level. I don’t recall ever doing any of these at gross. With one person and half fuel, it was pretty quick to get off the ground, perhaps sub 300m.

Highest Altitude? Fastest Groundspeed?

• Perhaps 11k feet (with some extra power remaining). Some cruising at 10.5k.
• People are quoting higher numbers, but my recollection was 100 to 108 knots on the GPS as a true airspeed (7.5 to 8 usg/hr). Throttle wide open, leaned to roughness at 6.5 to 10.5k feet. Perhaps it went faster before it became altitude limited, but I don’t recall this (I did not fly for best speed down low, I normally flew for speed and economy at altitude (as above). It had wheel pants most of the time, but we would have them off occasionally for the beach landings etc.

Longest flight?

• Perhaps 4.5 hours. That was enough for me in one go!

@Canuck are the beach photos near Tofino?

I learned to fly at the Pacific Flying Club at Vancouver International. It was a lovely logging town back then, with a parallel instrument approach for sea planes. Catalinas Otters and Beavers on the GA apron. Left for the UK to get a work permit back, hoping for a SIC in a BC Hydro Citation 500, but stayed in the UK.

Vancouver is now one of the most expensive cities in the world, but in the 70’s property was incredibly cheap.

@RobertL18C – Yes first and third photos are Vargas Island, near Tofino. The second photo is Nootka island, which is a bit further north.

I also learned to fly at the Pacific Flying Club, but at Boundary Bay Airport. There are still lots of GA floatplanes on the ramp at YVR; we almost based our Champ floatplane there, but ended up at Pitt Meadows instead.

It is a bit of a shame that Vancouver has become so pricy (London is less expensive!). We loved living there, mountain biking three times a week, rock climbing, etc. It has a largish population (2.5M in the greater Vancouver area) and keeps everyone employed. However, it is mostly mid-level jobs, with well paying ones few and far between. We have moved to London, which is much better career wise and for travel to and from Europe, but not so good for flying or outdoors. It does not reflect well on the city planning when you have to leave the city to earn some cash :-)!

Hi
so here is my contribution from my PA28 experience.
I guess there’s a fair amount of PA28 Owners and Pilots present on EuroGA. and it would be great to hear your stories!

How long have you flown the PA28? 5 years
Which version? Flew a 161 warrior during my PPL training and I owned a P28R Arrow 200 for 4 years. Now I own a PA24-250
How many hours so far? About 300
How and when did you find it/buy it? 2017 via online ad
Price? 27k Eur
What’s the history of the plane? 1969 Arrow 200 imported new to Germany and privately owned since then. Had only about 2800 TTAF and 3 past owners
What would you tell every pilot who will fly a Pa28 – nice to know / need to know?! very easy and forviging plane to fly. It is not thrilling but it just does a lot of things in a great way
Any memorable anecdotes? almost all of our family trips. We did majority of our yearly holidays with it. Flew down to Greece and back with my wife and 2 kids and many more
What was your nicest flight in a Pa28? * Balkan trip covering serbia, bosnia, monte negro etc*
What was your scariest experience? unfortunately more than’d have liked to have. 1. Lost compression on a cylinder after take off, 2. Clogged injector enroute, 3. stuck fuel servo at high fuel flow and I was unable to reduce power. We lost the engine shortly before reaching threshold
What do you like about it? versatility, simple, easy to maintain, the IO360 200hp engine is amazing though it was mainly the source of almost all of my scariest experiences
What do you dislike about it? cabin width, single door
Shortest strip? Highest Elevation? * I dont remember but 500m runways is generally not a problem if not loaded to max weight*
Highest Altitude? Fastest Groundspeed? 13’500. Fastest GS was 182knots
Longest flight? 4 hours