As I have posted elsewhere, Suspension of Shengen just means that a Douanier can stop you if they want to crossing a Shengen border, it doesnt mean you have to inform them of your movements or present yourself to them.
If there is a requirement in the AIP or a Notam for an airport to inform them for arrival intra-shengen (eg La Rochelle AIP) then it would be wise to do so. Otherwise, you can’t be expected to play “hunt the obscure website/forum” for every flight you make.
Regards, SD..
skydriller wrote:
Suspension of Shengen just means that a Douanier can stop you if they want to crossing a Shengen border, it doesnt mean you have to inform them of your movements.
Exactly! Sweden has had Schengen “suspended” for several years now which in practise only means that police set up border controls if the government feels like it. (Which hasn’t happened recently and AFAIK never for GA.) As long as there are no NOTAMs you’re just go.
Most of the countries currently “suspending” Schengen are doing so contrary to the Schengen agreement which set an absolute time limit of 2 years for internal border controls. Some countries (e.g. Sweden) have tried to get around that by changing the motivation for reintroducing border controls. Still both the European Parliament and the European Commission is getting more and more annoyed as this has been going on for several years and the reasons are motivated more by domestic political posturing than anything else.
lionel wrote:
That is what “freedom of movement” has always meant
I think perhaps you are thinking in EU terms rather than Schengen? It’s all rather blurry in practice. In the Nordic countries there has been as long as I can remember (50+ years back), freedom of movement. This means free to move and live and take jobs anywhere, no questions asked, no need to randomly show ID or passports. This is freedom of movement. Anything less is not freedom of movement, but some eroded/perverted “thing” with strings attached. A better definition would be a right to move around, but only under governmental surveillance. To put the word “free” in the same sentence is a bad joke.
Then came the EU (Sweden, Finland and Denmark as members, Iceland and Norway not). This didn’t change anything in the Nordics. Then Schengen. This didn’t change anything in the Nordics either (same as usual). If I do move to Denmark for instance (job, school, whatever), then after a couple of years I can apply for citizenship. After 5 years I don’t need to apply, I can simply send a note (I’m sure it is a form of some kind 
) that I want Danish citizenship, and I get it. This would of course also make me an EU citizen (I can still retain my old citizenship).
The thing is though, the south of Europe didn’t change in practice after Schengen (ID’s, passports and stuff required regardless for some unrelated/odd reason). It did however change things in Germany and Netherlands in particular + Belgium. They have become completely open, same as the Nordic countries was before, at least when it comes to travelling. I don’t know about taking jobs, studying etc, but I see the younger people regard everything as just one single place when it comes to education and jobs, much more than us oldies
It seems to me things are changing/happening pretty much independent of EU and Schengen etc. UK has completely isolated themselves. France is doing the same, but much less so. Not to mention Russia who has gone insane+berserk, but that’s another matter.
How things will be in 20 years from now would be interesting. Right now, some parts are getting more integrated, slowly but surely, bit by bit. Other bits and pieces are isolating themselves. That the UK and France, two of the largest countries in Europe, are two of those is a bit peculiar.
Unfortunately if the border police or customs act outside the powers given by the law (as they do in France with PPR for Schengen flights to point-of-entry airports), give wrong information (happened to me flying to Germany) or do not publish the corect information in the AIP, or are simply mistaken (as it happened to me in Norway) you can do nothing but comply – basically, grin and bear it.
In Germany I was told by an airport and in some info from the LBA that I could land at a certain airfield direct from the UK (pre-Brexit). Turned out to be wrong. Was greeted by police on landing, and a grovelling apology and an exchange of letters later I was let off with a warning.
In Norway I followed the procedures in the VFR guide and AIP to again land direct from the UK at an airfield (again pre-Brexit). I had made arrangements for AVGAS there with the local club. Some Policeman got their knickers in a twist and ATC diverted me to an international airport. He gave me a bollocking, I also (just to be safe) checked in with Customs who told be the Policeman was wrong but of course there was nothing I could do. Cost of his mistake – around 500 pounds. Had to do an extra stop to get AVGAS; the original fuel stop at that point had closed. At least the scenery was nice.
In Norway I followed the procedures in the VFR guide and AIP to again land direct from the UK at an airfield (again pre-Brexit). I had made arrangements for AVGAS there with the local club. Some Policeman got their knickers in a twist and ATC diverted me to an international airport.
It depends when exactly this was. If pre Schengen (2000 or something?) Then all flights coming from non Nordic nations had to go to an international airport. If after Schengen, then this is all non Schengen countries. UK has always been non Schengen/Nordic so it has always been international airport only, and still is. Brexit has nothing to do with this, it’s Schengen only.
The police officer was right, the customs officer was wrong, or just didn’t want to make more fuzz out of it.
Schengen/non Schengen had to do with immigration. This is police work. Customs is about goods, this is customs work. Two separate things.
I just feel some of the threads about “difficulties” are a little… how can I put this delicately… shall we say, self inflicted by the poster??
You are probably talking about me since I tend to work out how to do stuff “right” so there is a good chance of it working first time. That is what you get (or should get!) from a design engineer.
The other side are people who “live and let live” and this is also fine so long as you have a Plan B (or a Person B) for picking up the pieces if it goes wrong. It’s not really my favourite activity. Especially as almost anywhere I fly I can’t speak the local language so I am relying on the “system” working properly.
This morning I had the usual fun with French police demonstrating as usual that they will happily trash an airport’s business. French ATC strikes → CTOT → EOBT leeway shrinks to a 15 min time slot and then the police don’t answer the phone for 1-2hrs, don’t read their emails (~4 different addresses, send the day before, because I changed the EOBT from 9Z to 8Z) and make it obvious don’t really want to come an hour earlier, and turn up with 5 mins spare for my departure. Three of them and with enough weapons to expand Ukraine by, ahem, a few km. If you are the “live and let live” type you will need somebody to complain to pretty often. Or, of course, fly only within France, which, no surprise there, is exactly what nearly all do
However I also find – and I don’t mean you – that the people who say I plan stuff too carefully tend to be people who rarely fly anywhere, especially not outside their country. And flying within most countries is really easy – which is why probably > 90% of European pilots do just that.
Also almost nobody posts anything on EuroGA which is critical of their own country. I am one of the few exceptions; I criticise anybody and anything that deserves it
Douanier can stop you if they want to crossing a Shengen border, it doesnt mean you have to inform them of your movements
Different if they carry a 9mm, and behave arrogantly accordingly. Maybe OK if you speak the language – especially in countries where social interaction (success of) pivots so heavily not just on the language but the"way" it is used.
If we all have to start hunting around obscure websites and forums to find out about such things the system breaks down.
I agree 100%. It totally breaks the system. But they do exist, which is why I started this thread. They have always existed, even in “really nice” places like Mali Losinj which had different opening times on their website relative to notams (and I am not confusing local and UTC respectively which is usually the format).
@Peter in going to Annecy you did exactly the right thing coming as you did from a third country. You followed exactly what was in the AIP.
I am surprised you were forced to wait for C+I on arrival. This should not have happened and it is worthy of a complaint being sent to the minister for the interior’s office and copying to the minister responsible for tourism..
You should have been able to depart the airfield on arrival within reasonable time. 2 hours is not reasonable.
For your departure back to the UK, being a Sunday, I take it that you did your departure declaration at the same time as you did for your arrival ie the 24hour necessary. I was surprised that C + I actually wanted to turn up. But of course you had already given your EOBT. The trouble was IMO that you changed it and there may well have been no way to inform the border force that you had brought it forward.
As douaniers are not in the habit of telling people whether they are going to turn up or not, to check you out, it doesn’t surprise me if you had to wait until the original 9.00am EOBT.
If, on the other hand, you had to wait passed your 9.00am EOBT then again you have a reasonable case for complaint to the authorities mentioned above adding the DGAC to that as it could be a safety matter as well.
So the AIP was correct for coming and going from a 3rd country and you were right to follow it.
@Peter, I wasn’t actually thinking of you in particular, when I wrote that – I was actually thinking that those that get into trouble do so because they don’t look up the official sources of info, relying on “he said/she said”.. Yes, I try to do at least one trip outside of France per year – though VFR – where I get the impression there may be a little less constraint than if flying IFR?
What @gallois says is spot on. Going to/from Annecy is definitely PPR and fill in forms if they ask for them – I was only talking intra-shengen. And to be clear, I’m also not talking about arguing the toss with Douaniers or Police, but I can’t see the problem with questioning what they are saying you need to do, if you have different info from an official source.
I did wonder if the police had any way of finding out about a 1hr change in EOBT, so at 5am local this morning I emailed both the airport desk (they arrive about 8am local) and the several police addresses.
The desk said to me this should be fine because I had already told them a few days earlier I was departing today morning, but apparently the police often don’t pick up emails (I can confirm that, from an email I sent, in French, with a question; never replied).
So I think the police rarely check their emails, and/or they ignore them if they are later than EOBT minus 24hrs. Neither surprises me. 5am is 0300 UTC and my modified EOBT was 0800 UTC, so the 1hr change was notified with a 5hr PN, which is not 24hrs.
The airport desk was unable to contact them by phone, too, until just before they arrived.
I can also report that on the inbound passage, the police asked if I was “crew” and when I said Yes, no passengers, the man handed the passport right back to me, unchecked and unstamped. Same on the outbound – just checked.
I finally found the post by Bosco stating that Annecy needs the police PN for all foreign flights. It contained some extract from their website. I thought that it will screw up our fly-in because we had people from Belgium, Germany, etc.
where I get the impression there may be a little less constraint than if flying IFR?
The main one is that you can’t get a CTOT, and in general you can fly around more freely (not least because you will more likely be OCAS). I can’t think of other advantages of VFR, and it is usually much safer to go IFR for dealing with wx and ATC. A big discussion, of course.
I can’t see the problem with questioning what they are saying you need to do, if you have different info from an official source.
They could not speak any significant English, and an email querying the above issue went unanswered. But this is normal; the customs/immigration people almost never reply to anything, anywhere.
I was within 5 mins of cancelling the 0800Z FP and filing LFLP-LFOH or somewhere similar in France but on the N coast, and departing without the police A useful tool which always works.
As an aside, I was chatting with another pilot today about this and we had a laugh about how many pilots want to do this. Pilots who 20 years ago could just go more or less anywhere. It’s no wonder they sell up and buy a boat. One has to be a totally OCD dedicated character to carry on today. Doing the IR is hard enough (always was, in Europe, and by design, and has not really changed) but you do it only once per lifetime. This crap you have to do every time you cross certain borders. It used to be easier partly because PN/PPR has greatly expanded in the last decade, and partly because a lot of it was never enforced.
We are losing the most experienced, best funded, most dedicated, most going-places, pilots due to this crap. If I go back to say LDLO 2014 (one of our best meet-ups) and look what happened to the people there, it is clear that a lot of them just say one day “f**k this, I am gonna buy a boat, and instead of having to twist my wife/GF’s arm to fly with me, I will have her lying on the deck in a bikini”. Only one of them is dead.
