LeSving wrote:
This means free to move and live and take jobs anywhere, no questions asked, no need to randomly show ID or passports.
If I show up at a Norway town hall to register as resident, how do they, without me showing them an ID, know if I’m a citizen of the Nordic Passport Union that has right to “free to move and live and take jobs anywhere, no questions asked”, as opposed to an Australian that doesn’t have that right? Or do they just accept any human being that shows up, no questions asked?
Do you mean that a Swede without any income and with very little assets is “free to move no questions asked” to Norway without having a job in Norway, and get social & health benefits, like treatment for their chronic illness, and “guaranteed minimum income” through Sosialhjelp?
Before the UK joined the EU there was a “common travel area” between the UK and the Republic of Ireland. That common travel area still exists now that the UK has left the EU.
There are however restrictions (probably the wrong word). For instance vehicles travelling between northern Ireland and the ROI are often stopped for fuel and road fund licence checks. It is a bilateral agreement and there are many such throughout the world. I am not surprised that the Nordic countries have a similar common travel area. But usually it does not mean a free for all when it comes to settling, working or receiving benefits in those countries.
IMO the UK is very generous in this respect and may be one reason why so many make the dangerous journey on small boats from Dunkirk.
lionel wrote:
Do you mean that a Swede without any income and with very little assets is “free to move no questions asked” to Norway without having a job in Norway, and get social & health benefits, like treatment for their chronic illness, and “guaranteed minimum income” through Sosialhjelp?
In principle, yes. Certainly if you are a resident in Norway. Which, as a Swedish citizen, you have a right to be without needing a permit or an employment. You just register your residency just like you would if you relocated within Sweden.
Article 15 of the Helsinki Treaty between Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden (originally signed in 1962) states “The Contracting Parties shall endeavour to ensure that nationals of a Nordic country, when staying in another Nordic country, shall enjoy as far as possible the social benefits which may be granted in the country of stay to its own nationals.”
The official web site of the Nordic Council states (in this case translated from the Norwegian): “As a general rule, you belong to the social security system in the country where you work. If you are not working, you generally belong to the social security system in the country in which you live. […] The social security authorities consider you to live in the country where you have your usual place of residence. In this context, they look not only at where you have your registered address, but also where you are staying, what your living situation is like, where your family is staying, etc.”
How is the above applicable to GA travel? All relevant countries are already in schengen, yes?
Let me post something which is relevant to GA and the subject of this thread. Gallois mentions the CTA. Unfortunately, there is no “common travel area” for GA. It’s been sabotaged. From EIWT AIP:
UK – Ireland needs this 24hr PN at EIWT. In addition there is the Terrorism Act → 12hr GAR form at the UK end. There is also a GAR at the Irish end, which is implemented as the above 24hr PN.
But it gets better. More on the topic of this thread, EIWT is 48hrs PN for non EU passport holders, except the UK which is 24 
and that is on their website not AIP or NOTAMs.
Waterford EIWF; you’ve guessed it:
UK – Channel Islands (also CTA) does not need passports (although the staff will definitely ask to see one) but again need a 12hr GAR. Where is this CTA? There isn’t any kind of “common travel area”. Maybe on a ferry, or swimming across the Irish Sea. Hmmm, not dissimilar to Greece being in Schengen; not applicable to GA (a plane is a “vehicle” and they are not allowed) and the only way is to swim to Greece which implies Corfu – Italy!
@williamF will know this too.
Let’s not forget the Dutch pilot who was fined 1.500€ in 2021, upon landing in Dijon (LFSD), while coming from the Netherlands, which is intra-Schengen and intra-EU. This was during the COVID pandemic, however, the rules for flying to France didn’t really change since then. I think the message of @lionel post in the other topic is very good, but seems to be taken with high caution. If the customs/police officers are going to fine you, you will be fined. Luckily for the Dutch pilot, AOPA France brought this case to a happy end, but it did cause surely a lot of hassle and stress for the PIC in question.
skydriller wrote:
If there is a requirement in the AIP or a Notam for an airport to inform them for arrival intra-shengen (eg La Rochelle AIP) then it would be wise to do so.Indeed, as said in the other topic, let’s not forget the Dutch pilot how was fined 1.500€ in 2021, while flying from the Netherlands to Dijon (LFSD) without proper PNR/PPR to the police. He just wrote the “PNR police” request in the FPL, which was not enough. Fortunately for him, AOPA France could bring it to a happy end, but still… Border forces and customs officers are like ‘Gods’, they can do whatever they want, even if it’s unlawful. If you don’t comply, because the law doesn’t say you need to… well, good luck!
That picture is all you need to know!
and this little information
To/from green and or grey areas = a PITA no matter the mode of travel.
Within blue/purple areas = a walk in the park
Special treatment : France, also a PITA, but not that much of a pain all things considered.
Then we can start combining:
Grey to/from Gray = a double PITA
Grey to/from green = a 1.5 time PITA ?
Grey to/from blue/purple = a PITA
Grey to/from France = more PITA than grey to/from blue/purple
Blue/purple to France = a bit of pain
France to blue/purple = a walk in the park
Blue to purple = a walk in the park
purple to blue = a walk in the park, but with high probability of stepping in dog poo (ie customs)
That’s just the state of Europe right now. Then there are other stuff making transitions to/from much easier than a walk in the park (Nordics, Germany/Austria? etc) Stuff that has existed for as long as anyone on this board can remember.
Anyway, my main point is this is getting a bit old and tiresome. The reality of the status of Europe is what it is, and it’s not optimal regarding GA or anything else for that matter. Nevertheless, most of Europe (80-90% of the population and pilots) is in fact a walk in the park at this time, and it is bit by bit getting better and better, not worse (not counting Russia etc here). GA in Europe is much more than flying from grey areas, and bitching about how terrible “flying in Europe” is. Just saying. After the newest EASA/EU regs it’s better than ever, because it includes the blue areas (dog poo the other way excluded).
One particular country has elected to stay out if it all (again, not including other greys like Russia etc). This is the result of this self inflicted isolation.
this is getting a bit old and tiresome
Agree 100% – if you fly within Norway only. Then there is nothing to discuss.
Within blue/purple areas = a walk in the park
This is a caricature; this thread is about specifics. They also vary over time.
Peter wrote:
Agree 100% – if you fly within Norway only. Then there is nothing to discuss.
That is also getting old and tiresome. As I have said before, there is no issues flying to Sweden, none at all. All I have to do is to file a FP and I can go anywhere I want. While in Sweden I am also within EU. There is no practical way for me to fly anywhere without flying through Sweden anyway. I haven’t flown to Sweden, or anywhere else for that matter, for almost a year now, but that’s because I haven’t had anything to do there the last year. It is indeed a nice place to fly, with truly great GA infrastructure compared with what we have, and lots and lots of woods, and it’s a biiig place Right now I’m more in the “Bush” mode than anytime before, because I bought a STOL plane a year ago. Finding cool places, and “impossible” strips I haven’t been to here in Norway, and there many of them. Probably also in Sweden, I don’t know, I haven’t investigated that, but they also lack the terrain that makes it truly cool. Sweden is more of a sea-plane land in that regard (at least in my head), but maybe I’m wrong. Besides, it’s takes time to travel long distances in a STOL plane, and flying straight and level is not what I signed up to do.
I just don’t get it. It’s not like we are flying to Africa or crossing the Atlantic or something.
What you are “obsessed” about is human made idiosyncrasies created exclusively because that’s the way the UK wants it to be. The UK don’t want to be a part of anything “Europe”. The UK want to be alone. Well, the rest of Europe don’t, in fact it is seen as an important job to get rid of similar idiosyncrasies, regardless of EU, regardless of Schengen, and it has been going on for more than half a century (there is France of course…) Hence those idiosyncrasies are not part of our reality, not in “real life” and not as GA pilots. And that’s the way it is for at least 80-90% of GA pilots in Europe. We fly as we want, where we want, and if it involves crossing a border, no one gives a rats a$$. That is how it works.
OK, I apologise. Let me dramatically expand the coverage of my earlier statement
Agree 100% – if you fly within Norway only. Then there is nothing to discuss.
to
Agree 100% – if you fly within Norway only, and to Sweden. Then there is nothing to discuss.
Now can this thread, which was set up with a specific subject, get back on track, please?
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Speaking of the UK, stuff here is actually pretty straightforward. Often a PITA, with so much PPR (which is often not enforced, or is trivial, like a notification with no time requirement), but the published information rarely differs from reality. One gotcha is that small places, say Bembridge on the IOW, do not have AIP entries or NOTAMs, so you do need to check their websites, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid on the mainland because what the hell is one to do if the website conflicts with the AIP?
It’s rather funny because years ago we used to laugh at the pretty well totally useless AIPs of Spain Italy and with Greece leading the world of useless airport data. Today the first two are OK, Greece is almost quite good, and France is probably the worst because they simply cannot write their AIP properly. This is important because lots of people fly to France, whereas very few fly to Greece and those who do tend to know how to do it.
