I’m guessing the legal basis for requiring notice and performing checks is the suspension of Schengen that is allowed under the treaties. See here which shows France suspending Schengen from 1 May 2023 to 31 Oct 2023. The reason given is:
“New terrorist threats, increasing risk of terrorist organisations present on national territory targeting the Rugby World Cup taking place in September and October 2023, increase in irregular entry flows at the external borders (from the Central Mediterranean and the Western Balkans); internal borders with Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Spain”
Exactly. Border forces and customs can do or request whatever the f… they want. This is so messed up in Europe and all over the world. It’s like a lawless authority in almost all countries.
It seems many countries currently have temporary Schengen suspensions.
Eg.Austria, Germany, France, Norway,Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, Slovakia,
Not all for the same threats.
derek wrote:
I’m guessing the legal basis for requiring notice and performing checks is the suspension of Schengen that is allowed under the treaties.
No, not at all for “requiring notice”, and yes absolutely for “performing checks”.
The reintroduction of checks at internal borders (what you call “suspension of Schengen”) means that it becomes legal for the French state to do immigration border checks (checks of the persons crossing the internal border), no more no less.
The French regulation (Arrêté du 24 octobre 2017 relatif au franchissement des frontières (…) sur les aérodromes) is very clear on that; it says (second sentence of article 9) “in case of temporary reintroduction of checks at internal borders, checks may be done at these aerodromes [note by Lionel: in context, that is aerodromes that are not border crossing points] by the civil servants that were entrusted with this mission in accordance to the procedure in article 3”. They do not contain any obligation for PIC or operator to prenotify anyone, nor any power for any civil servant, minister or préfet to restrict what aerodrome one uses, nor to restrict at what time one can come, nor to add any procedure or requirement. By contrast, article 4 clearly defines who can, and in which circumstances and how, restrict extra-Schengen flights to certain times and procedures (which I understand as e.g. “PNR or PPR” or “only flights with EU citizens only” or …).
See https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/loda/id/JORFTEXT000035871810/2023-06-02/
FYI the “douane can stop me at any place any time” check I was referring to is a goods check, a customs check, not a persons check. It is for stuff like checking if one has tobacco, alcohol or petroleum/energy goods on which excise was not paid, or not paid at the correct rate (such as using heating oil in a diesel car), and passing the border with commercial quantity of goods subject to excise, and passing the border with more than 10 000 EUR cash or cash equivalents.
gallois wrote:
Although Schengen is nearly 40 years old now IIRC it didn’t really get properly up and running until, at the earliest the late 1990s.
While you are technically right in some understanding of your words, you make it sound like all the treaties to abolish internal border checks were there 40 years ago, but just were not applied. That is not true.
The initial Schengen Agreement was signed in 1985, but it did not provide for abolition of internal border controls nor a common visa policy. It provided for “endeavour to keep to a minimum the time spent at internal borders” and “seek solutions to enable to waive systematic checks”, meaning that while not every car/person passing the border would be checked each time, there was still border police / customs presence doing checks according to their intel, to their gut feeling, to how “hinky” you looked, etc. What I lived was that cars had to slow down to maybe 30ish km/h, the customs were there and looking, would look at you and either wave you through or make you a sign to change lane and stop. (More often than not they would wave you through.) As opposed to other borders, where each and every car is stopped and searched.
The complete abolition of checks (no customs people at all present) at internal borders and the common visa policy came with the coming into effect in 1995 of the 1990 Schengen Convention (full name: Convention implementing the Schengen Agreement of 14 June 1985 between (…) on the gradual abolition of checks at their common borders).
gallois wrote:
on what grounds does Vinci or the regional border force have for its PPR/PN policy at Annecy, which as far as I know is still a CAP (Civile aviation publique) airfield.
They do this without legal basis in complete illegality EVEN IN THE FACE OF A REINTRODUCTION OF INTERNAL BORDER CHECKS. Can we please stop calling that a suspension of Schengen, because it is not. The common visa policy is still in effect, freedom of movement is still in effect (NOBODY loses the right to travel within the Schengen area), the only thing happening is border checks. France made a commitment not to do checks at internal borders, and would be in breach of that commitment (and EU law which is French law) if they did, but the procedure of notifying the EU commission makes these checks temporarily legal again. THAT IS ALL. It has no effect on any freedom of movement, except showing an ID card or passport to a douanier or policier. It does not make it legal to introduce restrictions to free movement, such as PNR, PPR, etc.
boscomantico wrote:
At which airports was it where thet asked you about the PN, but then let you without trouble even without having provided it?
I remember clearly LFBE Bergerac. They claimed it was a rule local to just that airport. I remember because I told them “you mean I can just go to LFBE instead and take a cab from there, hassle-free and PNR-free?” (LFBE is less than 15nmi to the west). They didn’t dispute that in the least.
Then there was probably at least one of LFMU Beziers or LFBP Pau or LFBI Poitiers, maybe two of those or all of those. I’m not sure exactly any more.
lionel wrote:
With respect to La Rochelle specifically, which in 2022 published a NOTAM requiring 48h douane PNR/PPR for intra-Schengen intra-EU flights, I got it in writing from the same national-central “ask the douane a question” service that I can fly to La Rochelle from Luxembourg and vice-versa, without any PNR/PPR
To erase any doubt in anybody’s mind, I specifically asked “there is this NOTAM, is there some legal basis for it and which one or do you local La Rochelle colleagues operate illegally”, and despite me having quoted the NOTAM to them, they still answered you can go without PNR/PPR. They reminded the corner cases of the legislation (goods subject to excise, five-digit cash, etc) and the obligation to file a FPL at least one hour in advance for any flight that crosses the French borders. They didn’t write in so many words “our La Rochelle colleagues are operating illegally” but it is a direct consequence of what they wrote.
That is very interesting lionel. Thank you for posting such a detailed response.
lionel wrote:
The common visa policy is still in effect, freedom of movement is still in effect (NOBODY loses the right to travel within the Schengen area), the only thing happening is border checks.
Well, the whole point of Schengen is to have an outer border for the reason of not having internal border checks. Being stopped by the police/customs (at the border) and having to show ID etc is very far from free movement.
LeSving wrote:
Well, the whole point of Schengen is to have an outer border for the reason of not having internal border checks.
Yes.
LeSving wrote:
Being stopped by the police/customs (at the border) and having to show ID etc is very far from free movement.
As far as I know, free movement within the EC (before it became the EU) predates Schengen. Free movement means one has a positive right to enter the member states’ territory, not that one has the right to enter MS territory without proving one has such right (EU/EEA/Swiss nationality or a Schengen visa). I think passing intra-EC borders with only an ID card (not a passport) was EC-wide, and not limited to the Schengen area.
Just like I have the right to vote in Luxembourg city council elections, doesn’t mean I can go vote without proving I have right to vote (Luxembourg nationality or EU nationality + Luxembourg residence for at least 5 years).
This being said I agree Schengen’s abolition of internal border checks makes that much more fluid and easy, and much more concrete. But reintroduction of checks is still only that; it doesn’t give the MS that reintroduced border checks any right or legal possibility to deny entry to a person entitled to free movement (EU/EEA/Swiss nationality).
lionel wrote:
Free movement means one has a positive right to enter the member states’ territory, not that one has the right to enter MS territory without proving one has such right (EU/EEA/Swiss nationality or a Schengen visa)
A fine example of eroding rights in practice 
It’s happening all the time, everywhere. Soon we have to prove we belong to the human kind also
LeSving wrote:
A fine example of eroding rights in practice It’s happening all the time, everywhere. Soon we have to prove we belong to the human kind also
True, and that’s why it’s great that people like Lionel help keep us informed. We all need to know our rights or they will slowly disappear.
Well done @Lionel. I apologise if what I wrote made it sound like Schengen border crossing policy started in 1985. I was really trying to get to the point that in the late 1990s the FFA challenged the Government on its border force’s demands that we should still land at an International Airport (not necessarily a POE) in order to exit and enter from a Schengen country.
This prompted the government to make it more clear that the border force were wrong (as you say were acting illegally.)
I have been trying to find out by what legal means, over the last few years, these intra schengen flights to certain airfields and regional border forces have been re-introducing these and in fact adding restrictions like PPR/PNR etc, such as is the cases of La Rochelle and Annecy.
I thank you for taking the time to show what they are doing in the case of intra Schengen is actually illegal. Would you be willing to publish the communications from French border force so that other GA pilots can show this to those responsible if you go to eg La Rochelle without PN or PPR to the appropriate border force.
I would also like to send a copy to the FFA and FFPLUM so that all members can be informed.
BTW I have seen a recent report (on social media so cannot guarantee its authenticity) that in November, one will have to have a French visa, a Schengen Visa will not be good enough when entering France.
Eg a UK aircraft entering the Schengen area with pilot and/or passengers holding a Schengen Visa will not be allowed to cross into France without a French visa. Can you comment on this? Or do you think this is a social media wind up?
