A friend of mine had to go around in Cannes (LFMD) at 20:01 after tower has closed. They were on short final.
Do not expect tolerance… They finally landed at Nice and got a nice invoice for the night/landing/pax/To the day after.
please don’t forget that a lot of closing times and restrictins are legal ones imposed by local communities and Nimby brigades all over.
And with today’s means to follow up flights and to report them to authorities, quite a lot of airfields and airports are simply left with not much choices than to be stricter than they probably would be.
If you think 600 Euros is steep, while I was still working at handling I vividly recall the airport I worked at having no choice than to recall a full 500 person 747 from the runway at 22:01 when they were fully ready to go, sending 500 people to hotels and creating a huge mess. This was not a single occurrence at the time and while this kind of madness belongs mostly to the past, I can see movements afoot to take airports to court to go back to such practices after having exercised some sense for the last years.
2 minutes may well seem to be harsh but so are the neighbours and legal eagles waiting to snap up such incidents and make huge problems with it. Apart, I take such “2 minute” stories with a bucket of salt… recently I was confronted with a case like that where a pilot said he departed 2 minutes late, alas flight data monitoring revealed it was actually closer to 10 minutes. Time flies if you are in a hurry….
So @gallois post is a very useful reminder that tolerance today is a very precious good which can in most caes no longer be expected by airfields mostly due to the lack of it they face and the constant threats of legal action and movements to close them.
So take this for what it is: A warning not to be late and not to dick around with flight planning. As bad as it sounds, it may well be a good idea to divert early rather than make very bad experiences later. Or ask on the radio if you are still accepted early on. I did that twice in recent years once for slot and once for closure and in both cases was allowed to continue without reprecussions, because I asked ahead.
if you’ve been warned in many ways and still decided to cut it the wire (and be late!), then it is your choice.
People do have choices, but they don’t always choose the ones you’d like if you’re trying to manipulate them. A German friend of mine bought his dream traveling plane 5 years ago, keeping it on N-register to avoid hassles. His next move was to base it in Austria, which he says was an improvement. The next move he’s planning (after a reconnaissance mission last year with the plane) is to move the plane to the US, and fly it several times a year. He’ll still have his first plane and will leave it Germany for local flying. He’s the kind of guy who takes action, and that tendency throughout his life has made him the money required to work around broad dysfunction. Not everybody can do that, so it’s not a good situation for the average guy.
I think this just is Venice. It is symptomatic for the City in many ways
Been there done that, several times. In its modern incarnation it reminds me of Las Vegas (with similar airport problems!) or perhaps Disneyland (with similar crowds and costs).
Silvaire wrote:
where people and their organizations make money by creating barriers and problems, not reducing them
I think this just is Venice. It is symptomatic for the City in many ways.
I mean, this is a very precious and for sure expensive piece of land. Go to a better restaurant in Venice and try not to step into a pitfall where something costs way more than you thought…
Silvaire wrote:
As I said, it’s symptomatic of broader societal dysfunction, where people and their organizations make money by creating barriers and problems, not reducing them. The solution should be eliminating many rules, constraints, flight plans and fines completely as in places where GA is successful. In the real world the result will be no GA where those burdensome factors apply, whether by design or not, except for UL activities that are done on a more reasonable basis. UL flying avoids the dysfunction, and for sure does not have government employees managing FBOs that survive (or not) based on customer service.
Silvaire, in an ideal world it should be…! We are not there yet (at least not in Europe), and as many have already stated – if you’ve been warn in many ways and still decided to cut it the wire (and be late!), then it is your choice.
As I said, it’s symptomatic of broader societal dysfunction, where people and their organizations make money by creating barriers and problems, not reducing them. The solution should be eliminating many rules, constraints, flight plans and fines completely as in places where GA is successful. In the real world the result will be no GA where those burdensome factors apply, whether by design or not, except for UL activities that are done on a more reasonable basis. UL flying avoids the dysfunction, and for sure does not have government employees managing FBOs that survive (or not) based on customer service.
Silvaire wrote:
Maybe these ‘popular destinations’ should publicize that unpredictable, draconian and opportunistic charges are part of their business model
How would you like them to publish it? Perhaps by putting it into a list of charges on their website? Then making a bit button on the home page that will calculate exactly what your charges will be?
Well, they’ve done that already. And in fairness to them, it’s one of the clearer list of charges to read. It’s not complicated and don’t have pages and pages of charges which you are wondering if they apply or not. It’s really clear.
It’s a hard lesson to learn, but one they won’t forget.
It might just be 2 minutes. But I suspect that the employees aren’t remunerated on the basis of minutes. They probably are entitled to an extra hour’s pay for any part of an hour that they have to work late, and quite likely at overtime rates. All employees will probably have to stay late as they don’t know if you require fire support or not, refuelling etc.
I note from their list of charges that they charge more if the late services aren’t ordered in advance. I’m sure this is because staff have their own obligations and don’t like having to stay late unexpectedly. At least if it’s arranged in advance, then staff can arrange someone else to collect their child from the creche etc.
There is probably also an element of where do draw the line? If 2 minutes isn’t a problem, then people will say “it’s ok they are there a few minutes late” and take 5. 5 becomes 15 and so on.
Waiving the fee would probably involve getting the agreement of all the staff to waive waive their overtime. Depending on the number of staff, that’s a fair bit of work to see if everyone agrees to do it.
On the other hand the pilot could be considered lucky that they were there at all. If they were later and not on a flight plan, then the airport wouldn’t have know they were coming and everyone would simply have left home and the airport would have been closed. I’ve seen similar in Ireland where an airport closed and the pilot couldn’t land there. Caused quite a bit of paperwork with the authorities though all was fine in the end.
Having said that, I like the French idea of never being open or closed. Just whether services are available or not. If everywhere went that way, things would be much nicer. But it’s simply not practical in some countries for legal reasons.
I would guess that the Venice Lido staff are state employees, so they will have a certain expectation of ticking to contract hours etc.
For what its worth, I think that Porrtoroz is possibly the greatest GA airport Europe, with truly wonderful and friendly staff. Yet thay have made it clear to me when I asked that one minute late and the overtime charges will apply.
It wouldn’t shock me to hear it happens weekly at some popular destinations so additional fees either deter carelessness, or compensate the staff when appropriate.
Maybe these ‘popular destinations’ should publicize that unpredictable, draconian and opportunistic charges are part of their business model, punishing young pilots who make tiny mistakes within over-complex constraints in a way that financially benefits the whole community. I’m sure that would attract sustainable business, and generate a relaxed, hospitable vibe for visitors with a choice of how to spend their time and money. Or maybe on second thought they should just hide their disreputable behavior, trick their customers and steal the money 
If business practice is reduced to tricking customers to make a living, instead of pleasing them, what you have is a social disease.
At the very least, it’s a simple small reminder to some of us, that we mustn’t become complacent with our built-in time contingencies. Some places will adhere to rules and the effect on our budget can be large.
I landed in Lido very close to closing time, but had been in regular contact during the day. Some small individual things occured through the day pushing the timeline.
In future I will consider changing my plans rather than pressing-on.
I can imagine that some destinations are exposed to this quite a lot, and after a while, regardless of their enthusiasm for flying/running an airfield, this is gonna wear thin.
It wouldn’t shock me to hear it happens weekly at some popular destinations so additional fees either deter carelessness, or compensate the staff when appropriate.
