Mooney_Driver wrote:
This is exactly what I am talking about. Most Europeans never realize just how much power the state and on top of that the EU government really has over them. When, MedEwok, were you last asked by your government, if you agree or disagree with something? When did you last have the chance to vote in a referendum? Who do you address if you do disagree with something? Who is “your” representative in your government?
We live in a representative democracy so every four or five years I can decide whom to trust with representing my wishes politically. Elections take place on local, state (Land) and federal (Bund) level separately. I can directly access my representative for each level: Go to the town hall for local matters, talk to my regional MP for state matters or my federal MP (MdB) for federal matters.
Referenda are possible in Germany but seldom used due to their widespread abuse under Nazi role. Brexit demonstrated how referenda usually don’t work well because most political questions are much too complicated for a simple yes or no question.
What I wonder is how is my freedom being restricted by our state and government?
Brexit demonstrated how referenda usually don’t work well because most political questions are much too complicated for a simple yes or no question.
Well, a referendum is capable of delivering a surprising result, for sure… but then so is a conventional election.
The basic principle is to never give people a vote which would go the way you don’t want. Europe is not going to make that mistake again 
Same as a lawyer must never ask a question to which he doesn’t already know the answer.
but seldom used due to their widespread abuse under Nazi role
It is truly atrocious when you give the proletariat a vote and to your horror they vote for something which doubles the cost of champagne
I think that the success of the Brexit referendum was, for a good part, a success of populist lies and not of “direct democracy”.
MedEwok wrote:
What I wonder is how is my freedom being restricted by our state and government?It really is not easy too see if you’re living in the system and generally approving of it.
But let’s take a German example that is relevant to EuroGA: The use of airports and in particular the “flugleiterpflicht”. In Scandinavia you can take off and land on any piece of land (except in villages, towns etc.) with the landowners’s permission. Not so in Germany. From what I understand seaplanes are essentially useless in Germany for this reason.
It really is not easy too see if you’re living in the system and generally approving of it.
But let’s take a German example that is relevant to EuroGA: The use of airports and in particular the “flugleiterpflicht”. In Scandinavia you can take off and land on any piece of land (except in villages, towns etc.) with the landowners’s permission. Not so in Germany. From what I understand seaplanes are essentially useless in Germany for this reason.
Yes good example and I admit my question was deliberately naive t as it is obvious that my freedom is not unlimited. But as I tried to outline further above I don’t think unlimited freedom is a good idea.
Flugleiterpflicht and Flugplatzpflicht are stupid laws though that should be abolished.
I don’t think such isolated examples can prove either point.
Where’s the freedom for Americans or Swedes when they want to drive their cars fast? (I don’t think that this is a symptom of freedom, but it’s a valid analogy)
If we discuss the topic like this, it will lead nowhere.
Alexis wrote:
Where’s the freedom for Americans or Swedes when they want to drive their cars fast?
Where is the freedom for Americans to have their children educated according to enlightened ideals when they happen to live in one of the states (now the majority) that forbid Darwin’s theory to be taught at school?
Let’s not forget that the “free men” who founded America have in large part been religious fundamentalists who fled Europe because of that. Ask their children and descendants to this day how much freedom they had in their lifetime.
Alexis wrote:
To me the USA is the most endangered of all western democracies at the moment. Just read what Pres. Obama has said about the latest healthcare ideas. Take away health insurance from 23 Mn. Americans?I love America and go there often, but it’s other version of it I like …
Public healthcare is a socialistic principle.
Not a democratic one…
Democracy is about power distribution. Healthcare is about wealth distribution.
Two different ideas… not very related, except that socialism eradicates democracy…
Stickandrudderman wrote:
I’m only sorry that my ignorance prevents me from having anything to contribute.
Your participation is contribution. :)
Thanks for contributing!
Airborne_Again wrote:
The libertarian solution did work reasonably well in the US when there was a “frontier” beyond which you could really build your own life. (Once the native americans had been wiped out, of course.)
Your post is excellent A_A.
The frontier is a key piece of the puzzle. I think one of the keys of the frontier is that people can escape the rule of another person. When you have somewhere to go where you are self-sufficient, you don’t have these kinds of issues. You are truly free. I’m also of the opinion that the wagon trains west created a different culture as well. I think that’s why California is such an incubator of new ideas the way it is. People are pioneers there. The East Coast is still somewhat European. More cloistered and conservative in thought.
Freedom is not the ‘right’ to do what one wants, but the lack of limitations/hindrances on what they can do. It is then almost completely up to them, what they do.
I think this gets mixed up a lot. I’ve talked to a lot of people who think that ‘freedom’ is having some right to do whatever they want (and have no consequences/accountability for it). I don’t see it that way, and I think that is rebellion, not freedom. Just because you have freedom, doesn’t mean you exercise it in destructive ways…
MedEwok wrote:
There is a word for full-blown freedom from government interference and it is called “anarchy”.
Anarchy is the opposition of structure. Structure is not necessarily a limitation of freedom. I think truly free people congregate, to be together, work together and share, of their own free will. It is beneficial to have one person take care of specific tasks instead of everyone all spending time doing the same thing. When people agree to this, no freedom is lost, so long as those responsible continue to serve everyone. Free people recognize that they benefit in time by having representatives handle public responsibilities.
Of course, there will never be 100% agreement, so sacrifice is involved,(still a choice). But the beauty of freedom is, people can just “go somewhere else”. It is a large world, perhaps there is no perfect freedom anywhere, but we can still emigrate and immigrate quite freely.
I like to bring this up when people are ignorant about Islamic beliefs. Only Europeans and Americans really care about this topic, but I find it incredulous that most of them have never visited such a nation to experience the reality of what these beliefs result in. There’s a reason the Western World and the Middle East are so incredibly different. It isn’t the weather…
It is a mangled ideal to me that Anarchy could even remotely be associated with freedom… Anarchy is destructive by nature, and freedom is simply a condition of being.
MedEwok wrote:
The US is at the bottom of the developed world league table for almost all quality of life indicators and that is the price to pay for “freedom”.
Those are the European quality of life indicators.
Typically, Americans have different indicators of quality of life. I don’t share the same ideals you listed (for instance). I value freedom far above a number of those you listed. I don’t care about free healthcare. I won’t when I’m 80 either. When it is time for me to die, I’m gone. Book closed. I don’t need to stretch more years out of my life, who cares? I enjoy the time I have now, and when it is up (if it is tomorrow, so be it) then it is up.
Watching old people put on life support and be isolated in their homes (very often the case in Europe) with a nurse, while they live a sub-par experience of loneliness, physical imprisonment (they can’t really go anywhere do anything much) and frustration (bad hearing, bad eyesight, etc) isn’t an improvement in the ‘quality of life’ to me. That’s subpar quality of life. Extending that doesn’t look exciting to me…
Poor people in America are not stuck there.
In fact, my experience of trying to help poor people is that they just dump the money like water into sand. They don’t typically don’t understand basic principles of financial management like, savings, planning, and building wealth.
Note that these fundamentals are not taught in the basic (1-12 grades) education system in the US…
My opinion is that primary schools in the US are political chess pieces and designed to teach kids how to think, not how to learn and how to competently manage their personal lives wrt basic financial interactions.
- Just one example: a lot of people in the US have no idea what revolving credit means, or what an APR is and how it is calculated. They don’t know what they are signing up for when they get credit cards.
That would be easy to teach kids in about 2-4 hours. I’ve done it. It’s easy.
Sadly, the fruit of all this mandatory education isn’t that great. It is incredibly demotivating for a student to score high marks and pass a class, while sitting next to a kid who doesn’t want to be in school, or learn, so he doesn’t, and distracts everyone and brings the class down. The prisoner still gets a pass in the US system and the student learns that hard work doesn’t mean anything. (unless he is from a family that understands the value of education, in which case he’s probably not poor to start with)
That’s poverty. Airborne_Again wrote:
In Scandinavia you can take off and land on any piece of land (except in villages, towns etc.) with the landowners’s permission. Not so in Germany. From what I understand seaplanes are essentially useless in Germany for this reason.
You beat me to it… :)
Build a grass strip in your backyard. You can in the US, can you in Germany?
Go camping in the forest… US=yes, Germany?
Put bigger tires on your car (than specified by the regs). US=yes, Germany?
etc. etc. etc.
Alexis wrote:
Where’s the freedom for Americans or Swedes when they want to drive their cars fast? (I don’t think that this is a symptom of freedom, but it’s a valid analogy)
Beat me to it as well… :)
Alexis wrote:
If we discuss the topic like this, it will lead nowhere.
Only because there isn’t any frontier left…
(might end up with another USA otherwise…)
AF wrote:
Build a grass strip in your backyard. You can in the US, can you in Germany?
Theoretically you can. There are a few examples. Prices of land close to populated areas makes it impossible for most, though. And away from populated areas there are plenty of airfields already.
AF wrote:
Go camping in the forest… US=yes, Germany?
US yes? And what if you happen to plant your tent on someone’s ground who enjoys his freedom to carry and use a firearm 
In Germany at least you won’t get shot at if you camp in the wild. The typical fine is 5 Euros if you get caught doing it on public land. On private ground you can camp as much as you wish with the owners permission. And BTW: The freedom to camp in the wild varies widely across states in the US and also within the individual states.
AF wrote:
Put bigger tires on your car (than specified by the regs). US=yes, Germany?
Yes. There is a big “car tuning” scene here. Some paperwork is necessary but almost anything is possible.
Public healthcare is a socialistic principle.
The origins of public healthcare systems in Europe are the hospital system founded by the Catholic Church in Medieval Europe. This system was based on ancient Greek and Roman ideas of how society should care about their sick members. And really, countries like Canada (free hospitals), Germany, Japan or England are not socialist countries.
