Cobalt wrote:
it undermines the efforts by more measured people to increase vaccination rates through persuasion.
The question may well be where that effort ends. Most measured people who have been trying to persuade others are sick of getting screamed at or even attacked over this so they stopped and shut up. And several commentators e.g. in Germany now suggest that compulsory vaccination laws would actually open doors to people who were outspoken against it not to loose face if they “cave in” because they “have to”. Sometimes that can be beneficial as well if they have someone to blame for their own change of mind… Austria as well as Italy now are going to impose this (Italy for over 60 if I remember right) and Germany is considering it. IMHO this would have been the way to go about a year ago already or latest this fall.
In general however, I think a huge drawback at the moment is the reckognition that vaccination will not prevent you from getting Omikron. Lots of people I talked to recently who did everything up to 3 times vaccined now become totally frustrated about this and anti vaxxers are golating vocally everywhere. Right now, there are several prominent folks who got infected and are ill despite 3 vaccinations and papers are on it like flies on a pile of .-…
While we all know that this is garbage because the vaccines will still protect most people from severe illness, hospitalisation and death, which in my book is what counts, I can to an extent understand the frustration expressed by many over the fact that Omikron has a very high rate of infection also for 3ple vaccinated people.
The other bit which is highly contra productive is the constant change of rules, e.g. the validity of health passes evaporate from 1 year to 6 or 4 months, one day this, one day that, and here in Switzerland particularly even regional differences as cantons have the liberty to decide for themselves. (In Germany also on a state level). People loose track of what is the actual set of measures in place.
My hope really is with those virologists now who predict that the pandemic may finish by this spring…. while I don’t believe that yet, it is at least a ray of hope in this rather dark time.
I am not anti-vax. I have had two shots but probably wont go ahead with the booster as I mentioned in an earlier post. This is merely to point out that not all people who refuse the vaccine are not tin foil hat nut cases. I have a doctor friend who does not see the need who is highly informed. As with the Consultant working on the front line, below I think the main factor is obesity. If I had comorbidities then I would go ahead with the booster.
Today in the Daily Telegraph which is behind a paywall although you can read it in the Belfast Telegraph free of charge. As I said before, I respect everybody’s right to choose. Is this Doctor anti-vax?
I don’t think the main point is obesity anymore or any other co morbidity. I think the main point is now how many people are either turning up at hospital, in particular those in need of ICU, and those off work.
There is a strong correlation between the hospitalised and the lack of vaccines. At least here in France. That in turn is putting pressure on a health service which is trying to deal with it’s normal annual demand.
At the same time people who are not showing any signs of illness are having to take time off work because they have been in contact with someone who tested positive.
If you take the huge number of top class footballers who are having to isolate. Many haven’t been vacced for various reasons, mainly to do with the fact that advice was that they are young and extremely fit and spend most of their time in a bubble, whereas to get the vaccine, the effects of which might put them off work for a few days. Well now Covid positives are rife amongst them and it is decimating the football economy.
Now we can all say, what does it matter? Is sport important and these people are highly paid anyway. But similar circumstances are being seen throughout industries. And some of the hardest hit as has been from the start are the medical and care sector and transport. All of which has a trickle down effect in one way or another to the population at large.
Deaths have come down so comorbidities are no longer a major factor. We need to deal now with the next phase and for the moment that still IMO means people getting vaccinated.
Archer-181 wrote:
If I had comorbidities then I would go ahead with the booster.
Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security with the idea that you are invincible because you do not have comorbidities. ICU’s right now are full with people just like that. It’s a bit like, oh, I’ve worn my seatbelt for 40 years and nothing happened, so I won’t bother now. Get that booster rather than be sorry later on fighting for breath in an ICU or having to call your family to say good bye before you get intubated.
Archer-181 wrote:
Is this Doctor anti-vax?
Obviously and he should not be allowed to work around people with this attitude.
It is totally beyond me how anyone working in the health sector, dealing with sick people who can not help being in their care, refuses to take every precaution available to them. The same thing is a big issue for flu vaccinations and others as well: IMHO, health professionals should be put to the choice to either vaccinate against any form of infectious disease they are likely to encounter or else find a different employment someplace where they don’t spread their germs onto people who rely on them.
It is totally unacceptable that a huge quantity of senior citizens die every year of the flu (and in the last years of Covid) because those paid to take care of them infect them because they refuse to take whatever measures are available to them to protect themselves and those they care for.
gallois wrote:
Well now Covid positives are rife amongst them and it is decimating the football economy.
The ski circus also is quite a russian roulette right now as there are dozens not vaccinated and even more tested positive. They might as well shut it down, as it is now, chances of winning races has more to do passing the negative test than anything else.
gallois wrote:
But similar circumstances are being seen throughout industries. And some of the hardest hit as has been from the start are the medical and care sector and transport. All of which has a trickle down effect in one way or another to the population at large.
I think you are catching the point quite well. We have two problems right now. A) the hospitalisation figures and ICU occupancy and B) the impact the huge infectious behaviour of Omikron has on every single business. We are already seeing closures and cancellations right now and it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
The question arises whether it is still necessary to isolate people with positive tests who are assymptomatic. Well, the answer to that is yes but primarily because there is still such a large quantity of unvaccinated and unboosted folks around who, if they get ill, become a problem for the health services. If we had a vaccination rate of 90-99% or so, I think it would be fairly safe to reduce testing to those with symptoms and to stop quarantines for most others.
gallois wrote:
We need to deal now with the next phase and for the moment that still IMO means people getting vaccinated.
Vaccinated and boosted. Yes, absolutely.
It’s a good example of media sensationalism.
That doc is clearly not “anti-vax”, he’s just chosen not to get vaccinated himself. There’s a massive difference. The media spins “I don’t believe it’s the right choice for me, right now” into “I don’t believe in vaccines”.
I am obviously not anti-vax. I’m very pro-vax and have had three jabs. But am I going to have a booster every few months forever? No.
The question of compulsory vaccination for healthcare workers is something of a Mexican stand-off. On the one hand most governments in Europe cannot afford to lose any healthcare workers, and on the other hand most of those workers have few alternative employment options. It’s debatable who loses most if a bunch get fired for refusing to be vaccinated. My guess in the UK is that most will back down and get jabbed, because apart from those doctors who are very flexible in their outlook they have few other employment options.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
to encounter or else find a different employment someplace where they don’t spread their germs onto people who rely on them.
Thread update. We have gone bonkers again
Mooney_Driver wrote:
It is totally unacceptable that a huge quantity of senior citizens die every year of the flu (and in the last years of Covid) because those paid to take care of them infect them because they refuse to take whatever measures are available to them to protect themselves and those they care for.
This is so factually inaccurate.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Vaccinated and boosted. Yes, absolutely.
Read tyranny…
gallois wrote:
Deaths have come down so comorbidities are no longer a major factor.
Indeed. I just read new statistics that show that Sweden did not have any excess deaths in 2021.
(Interestingly, Swedish daily Dagens Nyheter just reported on a study on Covid-19 excess deaths. It showed that, from the start of the pandemic until June 2021, except for the Nordic countries, Luxembourg, Cyprus, Ireland and Lichtenstein, all European countries have had higher excess deaths than Sweden. And this in spite of most of them having had very much harder restrictions. So maybe the Swedish strategy wasn’t so bad after all…?)
Graham wrote:
The question of compulsory vaccination for healthcare workers is something of a Mexican stand-off.
The airline industry in several places is going there right now. And you are quite accurate in your assessment: Both have a lot to loose. Yet, some airlines go through with it, as they can not accomodate for people who are not vaccinated, given the entry requirements most countries impose. So right now, flight crews are being terminated if they refuse to vaccinate. In fact, this is not exactly new: Airline crews have had to get certain vaccinations for ages in order to operate into certain destinations: Yellow fever and some other vaccinations have been compulsory for entry in quite a few tropical destinations. So while this is not new at all, it merely is something that is now also applicable for short haul crews.
In the health care industry it is the same thing. Because health care workers are a rare commodity, most managements to this day have tolerated this kind of behaviour, not because they endorse it, but because they fear for lack of staff. And temporarily, this would be the case, that is a fact. However, if there was a clear regulation that only vaccinated folks may work in health care (or for that matter in any job where they come close to people with increased risk) then after some hubbub it would become a new normal. Anti vaxxers committed to their cause enough to stand fast would have to seek a different career. Tough.
What’s becoming clear is that no ‘strategy’ makes a blind bit of difference.
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have stricter measures in place than England. Yet all have higher infection rates.
France with the pass sanitaire has higher hospitalization and death numbers than the UK, with infections about the same.
It’s rather arrogant to think you can control it. It’s gonna do what it’s gonna do.
France 90% of over 12 year olds vaccinated.
46.7% over 12s vaccinated and with booster.
308188 positive tests in last 24 hours (of course this changes daily)
75% ICU occupancy
1306 per 100,000 over20 years old unvaccinated and tested positive
Compared to;-
193 per 100,000 vaccinated with booster
681 per 100,000 less than 6 months without booster
678 per 100,000 vaccinated more than 6 months without booster.
211.07 per million over 20 year olds unvaccinated entering into intensive care.
These are official figures from Tous Covid
IMO this demonstrates the benefits of vaccines and in particular the booster.
So why aren’t the 5 million unvaccinated getting the vaccine?
This is why President Macron and many others to be fair, are pissed off with them.
