National CAA policies around Europe on busting pilots who bust controlled airspace (and danger areas)

Dan wrote:

A disturbing fact is that UK ATC might warn you of conflicting traffic when using Basic Service, but will not warn you if you’re about to infringe CAS

@Dan, ATC (control as opposed to service, meanining ATC includes only Radar, Approach etc, but not INFO) might warn you of traffic if you are using basic service and they might warn you of a potential bust as well (Southend are not bad in that sense – asked me a few times of my intentions when I was approaching Stapleford ATZ, seconds before I was about to ask for a frequency change).
London Info will strongly encourage you to contact Farnborough Radar(s) when you are approach London TMA – with me they pretended to not know my precise location, asking to confirm, and after I confirmed where I am, they suggested I contact Farnborough WEST or NORTH or EAST. Once or twice they’ve suggested I contact Southampton Radar, when I was flying in that area.

there is basically no point in calling anybody in the UK (for an enroute service) unless it is a Radar unit

Thanks guys, and that confirms my experience as well. My take away is that in the future I won’t even contact info… but instead will concentrate on my NAV, Flarm/ADSB, and lookout

Dan wrote:

Thanks guys, and that confirms my experience as well. My take away is that in the future I won’t even contact info… but instead will concentrate on my NAV, Flarm/ADSB, and lookout

Dan, I usually go for a listenning squawk – you set the radio freq and the right code on the transponer, after that you just fly – if they want to talk to you, they’ll ping you.

The only reason to contact London Info is to open a flight plan when departing from somewhere with no-one on the radio.

If no LARS I would use London info, being realistic on what I might expect. Basically, I will be wearing a 1177 squawk so other ATC know who I am monitoring. With the correct ‘pass your message’ they will advise to check am aware of any relevant NOTAM. I can also check whether an area is ‘cold’.

Perhaps the most useful, is you are in touch with someone who is there to help if there is a problem.

Recently had a ferry flight where there was a portion of airspace without VHF, in theory I should have been picked up by Scottish, but I did manage to raise London Info who helped co ordinate my clearance back into CAS.

The same applies leaving a farm strip and coordinating an IFR clearance into CAS.

So for a variety of reasons I am very grateful for London Info and the excellent (non radar) service they provide!

London Info is fine for that IF there is no radar unit available.

And so is 121.5, with the added advantage of lesser interruptions of Beethoven’s 9th.

Dan wrote:

London Info is fine for that IF there is no radar unit available.

And so is 121.5, with the added advantage of lesser interruptions of Beethoven’s 9th.

:)))
@Dan, in the UK there is a strong possibility of getting just a slap on the wrist if you infringe a CAS only a little.
So if you squawk some code and ATC sees it and then “ah! he is with INFO. Let’s call INFO”, that way they can stop you fairly early, and you don’t cause much of a disruption, they won’t stop you before the bust, but fairly shortly after. Otherwise you could be the reason for many CAT diversions, in which case the prosecution is likely…

PS: Yes, I know that YOU are the less likely candidate for a CAS bust. :)

Perhaps the most useful, is you are in touch with someone who is there to help if there is a problem.

That would be a radar unit

The problem with London Info is that you will be changing frequency and sqwaks during emergency, the frequency is so busy that people keeps talking in the middle of your emergency and they don’t have radar to locate you…I would rather use 121.5 straight away (or nearby LARS) rather than spending 10min of RT chatter on 124.6 to end up with radar unit or D&D

I think London FIS does great job on admin: flight plans, weather reports, danger areas status…

PA28 that end up in English Channel is a good example of lack of radar service, lack of clearance to climb in LTMA or descend in Danger Area…the FIS helped to determine the time of death, of course all the blame is on the crew not airspace and services

ATC are usually pushy on VFR crew to declare an emergency on 1st signs: they ask “if you need assistance” or “propose an alternative”, the FIS has to coordinate everything, the amount of proposal is zero….

arj1 wrote:

YOU are the less likely candidate for a CAS bust

I have to disappoint the audience here… cutting the corner of CAS for a few seconds and a couple of hundred feet last year resulted in some rather tedious proceedings, no GASCO “course” though
The more one flies, the more one is current, in all its implications. On the other hand, the more one flies, the more one is at risk…

arj1 wrote:

that way they can stop you fairly early

Another disappointment here, and that is exactly the problem of the UK system: don’t count on any FIS warning you of an incoming infringement. No word, even when the sin has been committed. Just some nice snail mail from the CAA a couple of months later…

Ibra wrote:

you will be changing frequency and sqwaks during emergency

Absolutely, go direct to, or stay on, 121.5. Having crossed Southampton TMA a few years ago, one the Continental C-90 cylinder head tried to depart from its cylinder, calling an optimistic (couldn’t really hold altitude no more) PAN, resulted in being directed to 121.5

Ibra wrote:

London FIS does great job on admin: flight plans, weather reports, danger areas status

Which one might need, or not.
Flying up to around 6Kft, I usually get 5G or 4G reception all over EU. I way prefer to read raw TAF/METARS myself than having to beg/wait/eventually get the lengthy decoded version. I usually close the FPLs with the “Manage Flight Plans” option on SD. So the only open end are the danger area status, but again SD is pretty good at that.