I am with the airport too.
I cannot imagine planning an international flight in which I would try to cut it so close. I don’t think I have ever planned such a flight with less than say a 30 minute margin, And if I did think I might be late I would assume the worst and contact the airport with the required notice to request late opening. I have done this for Mali Losinj for example.
Further, landing ‘2 minutes’ after closing time means that in reality you wont be out of the airport for another 15 or 20 minutes at best, and who is paying the staff to work overtime. If we want wonderful places like Venice Lido to be available, we need to treat the staff with respect. And that does mean touching down 2 minutes before, or after. the deadline, it means getting there early enough so that they can close up the whole facility at the published closing time.
I cannot imagine planning an international flight in which I would try to cut it so close.
It always can happen that you’re late even when planning good margin. But that’s one of the reasons why we plan alternates. It happened to me – too much headwind plus some delay on departure and the result was 45 min after planned arrival time and 5 min after airport closing. I asked ATC early enough to check for me and they confirmed airport said late arrival fee would apply if I continue, so I diverted.
I asked ATC early enough to check for me and they confirmed airport said late arrival fee would apply if I continue, so I diverted.
Well done @Emir, guess that is what’s generally called experience. And something that young aviator probably did not have.
But still no reason to call the extra service charge an “amende”.
Peter wrote:
The problem is that this is not civilised behaviour.
Disagree, in fact I find this online calculator extremely civilized ! If you have opening and/or service hours, you have to have some cutoff. Otherwise the 2 minutes become 10, then 30… you get the drift. In fact, that level of transparency doesn’t normally exist even here, in the ‘Nirvana’ of GA.
I can understand that the pilot felt is was an amande, but in reality is was simply the fee to keep the airport open.
Sustainable business should aim to make people want to give you money, not to coerce people out of unreasonable amounts and make them hate you! Good practice would have the fee schedule applied to any ‘extra’ service correspond to the actual costs incurred, plus some reasonable percentage profit, and some management discretion should apply to unintentional arrivals a minute or two after the closing time. That is if you want repeat customers. Travel and aviation in particular is intrinsically unpredictable in timing, and if that’s not your thing you shouldn’t be working in aviation. How long would a hotel last if they operated like this?
Also it’s good business to make it unambiguously clear whether ‘closing’ means last landing time or ‘we’re gone for the day’ time. Aviation is a multicultural, cross border activity and pilots should not have to consult a book of etiquette to plan their flights and hope that the FBO uses the same book of etiquette.
Finally, the idea of airports closing is itself a bit stupid, no more valid in my mind to closing motorways after 5PM. If it is necessary due to some unfortunate legal constraint it should be done with the apologies of the airport operator, not with oppressive glee.
Exactly; whoever lands 2 mins late and gets hit with this will never fly there again, will hate the place, and will slag it off on forums for the next 10-20 years. And the last point is a real problem in Europe, with airports losing a lot of business if they become a target of some “boycott” campaign on social media. Shoreham was thus targeted for many years (via 2 notorious UK sites) while Biggin, while charging the same £30 (at the time) managed to totally avoid it.
I’m pretty sure the problem in the case @gallois refers to was cultural as opposed to poor planning. These were French pilots … where as a general rule, the concept of an airport closing doesn’t enter their thought pattern. With a couple of very well publicised exceptions, where landing late will indeed get you fined (hence their use of said word), French airports don’t close, they have ATC/fire cover hours and outside these hours airspace becomes Class G, you self announcement in French and take personal responsibility for your safety.
At Lido, I doubt the “fuss” is a desire to go home, but more to do with operating constraints imposed by the island, hence flashing light fire vehicle attendance to emphasise “abnormal operation”.
Regards, SD..
It was not my intention to cause a debate as to whether or not this young (19 years old IIUC) pilot on his first European tour in the club’s Robin 400, since passing his PPL was guilty of poor planning or miscalculation. Or whether or not the airport is justified in its charges for late arrival. In fact the pilot never gives his opinion. He simply states as a fact (what he understood as a fine) along with the cost of landing fee, boat taxi to the hotel, room rate and 30min gondola trip.
Had I have been the pilot I might well have included such things in the Euroga database or as a PIREP on Skydemon. But I was not. Yet I felt that it was worthy of a heads up to other Euroga forumites who might be thinking of dropping in on LIPV or indeed an advice to check all airport pricing policies on out of hours movements.
Perhaps it is better to keep quiet in future.
Perhaps it is better to keep quiet in future.
Not at all.
Much of GA enjoyment involves avoiding problems like this.
People who are always all-positive (the “cheerleader” personality) tend to be constantly in trouble and having to deal with multiple problems. Consequently there are very few cheerleader types among long term successful pilots.
