Ibra wrote:
What if ATC does not even know about the position & status of those Golf Restricted Areas?Unless they are adjacent to his airspace or 2kft bellow, I can’t see how it works? he won’t read en-route NOTAMS on behalf of PIC for whole route?
Are you referring to the Swedish situation? ATC always knows the status of restricted areas in class G. Most R-areas are established H24 and not by NOTAM. Their activation status will always be available to the controller. They don’t need to know the positions at is it the pilot’s responsibility to request permission.
Malibuflyer wrote:
This is an interesting point. Need to investigate. What is the ICAO standard wording for giving that permission? I have never heard a “D-e… permitted to cross ED-R…”.
Swedish phraseology is “Restricted area XX is not active. You have permission to cross.” I flew a lot of VFR in Germany the past week, but I don’t recall what phraseology FIS used. Sorry…
French phraseology normally is just " Rxxx active/inactive" If inactive you just fly through. You can also call the Restricted area frequency to request transit and if no response sometimes 2 or 3 clicks on the radio transmit button will elicit a message such as you are welcome to transit Rxxx but not below 1000ft when crossing runway, repeated in French and English. Or at least that’s what I remember from crossing Cognac on a Sunday.
Frequencies for each R P,and Z areas are in the Complimentaire to VFR alond with the 1:1million charts and often a few other bits.
Yes in Golf RA are in VFR charts and usually the activity & permission is handled by “VFR ATS”
Swedish phraseology is “Restricted area XX is not active. You have permission to cross.”
I would be impressed if Stockholm TMA ATC know about restrictrd area and can give permission to say enter restricted area in Golf (e.g. parachute activity by some club)? but if it’s H24 and not managed by NOTAMS then I think it would be possible…
Ibra wrote:
I would be impressed if Stockholm TMA ATC know about restrictrd area and can give permission to say enter restricted area in Golf (e.g. parachute activity by some club)? but if it’s H24 and not managed by NOTAMS then I think it would be possible…
They certainly do know about all R-areas under and in vicinity of the TMA. I don’t see the problem.
I just looked Sweden has the most clean airspace structure in the whole world
I still doubt that TMA ATC for +FL95 can offer FIS as well as the status & permission to cross this R-area?
In France, the expectation is 2kft bellow CAS you can still talk to ATC (Charlie/Alpha TMA & General Delta), they offer FIS in that band and they give R-permission and know about things in your way, if you descend way bellow they ask you to call SIV who known everything above 3kft amsl or Echo Airway/TMA, bellow that you have to call and figure out yourself 
In UK, the expectation is 0ft bellow CAS you will be lucky to keep talking to ATC
There is no question and no room for interpretation in this ICAO rule. 1. Clearence limit is to be specified by ATC. Clearance limit can be the boundary of controlled airspace, but still has to be specified by ATC. So if you get “cleared to XXXX” you are cleared to XXXX and not until some airspace boundary.2. Even more important – and more telling “the ATC unit responsible for the last controlled airspace through wich an aircraft will pass”.
So the ICAO rule explicitely reflects the case that during a flight you pass through controlled airspace as well as areas of uncontrolled airspace. And that doesn’t change the clearance limit. So taking this rules: The clearance limit is the clearance limit independent of if you pass through OCAS in between or not. It is the duty of ATC to do coordination if necessary. Even if your clearance limit has not been your destination in the first place (e.g. “you are cleared to boundary of controlled airspace …”). But even in that case, it is according to these ICAO rules the responsibility of ATC to coordinate for reentry of CAS in a timely manner (even “expedited” if required).
Sorry, I missed this reply, yes I agree, it’s ATC who specifies your clearance limit, although ATC are silent about it (in countries where you can legally fly IFR in places that ATC you are talking has never heard of, like some FFPLUM or UK Microlight grass strip, IFR all the way without cancelling), even UK has “clearance limit” similar to ICAO, nothing new under the sun: it’s just that ATC are well breifed and very careful not to tell you “cleared to Dinard at FL30” (see MATS Part1)
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=6657
Ibra wrote:
I still doubt that TMA ATC for +FL95 can offer FIS as well as the status & permission to cross this R-area?
There is no TMA ATC at FL95+, it’s enroute ATC. In any case, they do. That’s the way the Swedish system works, and I’ve flown in it since 1983 so you just have to trust me on this. Again, except for AFIS, Sweden has no dedicated flight information frequencies. FIS is provided by the ATC unit responsible for the controlled airspace above.
In the case of this particular R-area (ES R 114), it is particularly easy as it protects a national park and ATC will never give you permission to cross. You have to get a special permit in advance from the Swedish Transport Agency,
There is no TMA ATC at FL95+, it’s enroute ATC. In any case, they do. That’s the way the Swedish system works, and I’ve flown in it since 1983 so you just have to trust me on this.
Yes en-route ATC 
your statement clearly shows you can have swaths of Golf with limited ATC coverage but still have a fully integrated ATS system…
