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IFR Sweden uncontrolled airspace

I think we have done this before but it’s still unclear to me.
This week I was in Sweden IFR.
When leaving Danish Airspace I got into Gothenburg TMA. Out of that I was changed to Sweden control.
At FL90 I could see this was outside controlled airspace, so I asked the controller:
- Is this airspace controlled or uncontrolled?
uncontrolled
Who is responsible for clearance through the restricted areas ahead?
Since you are IFR you already have a clearance. Had you been VFR you needed to ask for a clearance.

So far so good.

The problem is going back I did exactly the same and got the opposite response:
You are responsible for clearance through restricted areas IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

On both legs I initially was cleared to the destination.

pmh
ekbr ekbi, Denmark

You are responsible for clearance through restricted areas IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Unless you are on a published route this is “the norm” for uncontrolled IFR, you also need to read en-route NOTMAS and prepare frequencies before you start up your engine

If you are flying off-route & off-radar, the FIS may not even know where you are, they will surely help with further clearances if you ask (probably better than VFR)

Last Edited by Ibra at 24 Apr 19:30
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

That was also why I asked in the first place. Better safe than sorry.
But it seems the situation is not completely clear as I got two different reply’s.

pmh
ekbr ekbi, Denmark

Did you got a handover to next controller or you called out of the blue? were you talking to ATC with FIS hat (for IFR OCAS) or “pure FIS” units?

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

I was talking to Sweden control. They handle controlled and uncontrolled traffic VFR and IFR at the same time. I did get handed over

pmh
ekbr ekbi, Denmark

I would not expect it to be a problem if FIS(ATC) you are talking to OCAS also manages R-area and has radar, still it’s PIC responsibility to get airspace permission while IFR OCAS outside published routes

I am puzzled by the first answer, maybe @Airborne_Again knows better?

Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

pmh wrote:

Who is responsible for clearance through the restricted areas ahead?
Since you are IFR you already have a clearance. Had you been VFR you needed to ask for a clearance.

The problem is going back I did exactly the same and got the opposite response:
You are responsible for clearance through restricted areas IFR in uncontrolled airspace.

Could be, that both statements are true:

First and foremost: When you are cleared, you are cleared!
ICAO is very clear about that. It is not the responsibility of the pilot to double check if the controller who gave him the clearance has the right to give that clearance. That would be completely unfeasible in international travel anyways.
So if you got a clearance “cleared to destination, flight planned route” you can fly this and are cleared for any airspace that might be in between.

But what could also be true (and not contradicting) is that you might typically not get such a clearance if you are flying in Swedish uncontrolled airspace.

Germany

‘When you are cleared you are cleared’ is indeed a partly re-opened discussion item for uncontrolled airspaces. Germany for example already tried to threaten pilots by punitive tickets after filing and getting cleared IFR through restricted areas = Link (German) https://www.pilotundflugzeug.de/artikel/2021-12-31/Wirklich_nur_in_Deutschland .

Germany

ICAO is very clear about that. It is not the responsibility of the pilot to double check if the controller who gave him the clearance has the right to give that clearance

But the clearance is only valid in controlled airspace, controlled aerodrome and controlled published routes

How do you deal with getting “cleared to destination” on departure but no “clear to land” in Golf once you have left Echo bellow
1kft-2kft agl and enter an ATC AD RMZ? or is landing very different and need separate clearance?

Last Edited by Ibra at 25 Apr 07:57
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Landing does need separate clearance even when cleared to destination (being the IAF or an IAF). If you try looking at it from the point of view of the controller rather than the pilot you can see that both statements in this case could be correct.
I don’t know the system in Sweden well but if it is like France
1/ Pilot files I FPL, it is validated and acknowledged and is therefore the current flight plan. If the pilot flies that flight plan exactly all ATS from beginning to end will see his mode S transponder code, will know who s/he is , the route being followed, and the time that aircraft is expected at the next (reporting point). Each ATSO along the way will be expecting the aircraft and the hand over points from one frequency to another, previously calculated. It doesn’t matter, therefore, if your route takes you in and out of CAS as long as you are following the FPL.
2/ OCAS you are free to do what you want, so to speak, climb descend, have a turn round the chateau you see below etc. You are responsible for keeping clear of “R” and “P” areas or negotiate clearance through them. The ATSO on your FPL route may not play any role in this negotiation.
But if you do this you are unlikely to turn up at the downstream reporting points at the time you put in you FPL.
This means that when you come to re -enter CAS the ATCO will have to rearrange things with the other ATCOs and ATSOs downstream so that separation can be maintained. In areas without a great deal of traffic or without military zones etc, this may be no great problem. However, in high traffic areas or in areas, to give an eg. where you were scheduled to pass over a military area during lunch🙂 but after lunch the fast jet pilots are all back at work, this becomes more difficult.
3/ You arrive at a particular CAS and the ATCO looks at his/her computer and sees that most of the others he had expected in the area have cancelled or changed route. You might be offered a more direct routing and might have already agreed with the next ATCO that the new routing will be offered. This more direct routing might well take you OCAS. If for instance you accept and go OCAS the ATCO would normally be expected to warn you of any impending restricted area activity and help you avoid it by suggesting Xx degrees left or whatever, should you need it. In this you have the same rights as you do in any OCAS but if you go off the recommended route you must understand that the FISO handling you and the ATCO expecting you are not mind readers and just turning up at their doorstep might be met with a standby or a remain OCAS.
4/If, during the course of your flight things like traffic in a particular zone, change to the extent that the ATCO needs to make some changes to maintain separation the ATCO may request you alter your route and give you vectors through his/her zone. In such occasions it is the job of the ATCO to ensure that any downstream changes are communicated and acknowledged.

As I wrote this is for France as was explained to me by a senior ATCO at an ACC.
Things may be different in Sweden.

France
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