VFR departure can be done while having an I-IFR flight plan on standby no need to re-file Z-FPL, actually, you fly can VFR without FPL in Germany? or do you need V-FPL/Z-FPL in big airports to depart?
Concurrent VFR and IFR flight plans are possible – because IFPS doesn’t check for a VFR FP with an overlapping time. IFPS doesn’t receive “V” flight plans.
What happens if you file two “Z” or “Y” flight plans (both of them go to IFPS) on which the IFR sections do not overlap but the VFR ones do, I have no idea. It would be easy enough to test. I reckon it would chuck the 2nd one out even if the overlap was purely on the VFR sections, because that is the obvious way to code it 
I think tower ATC suggested him to take this option? it was not a trap
This is certainly possible because I have done it, but I bet you that it is not possible at many bigger airports, because it would be an obvious workaround for a CTOT, for anybody capable of VFR “for at least a bit” (basically everybody except an AOC jet; airliners are absolutely prohibited from flying VFR with passengers, AIUI).
The European system is set up to make CTOT circumvention very difficult – because operators found ways to game the system (stuff like cancelling and resubmitting; nowadays that is just likely to give you are really sh1tty CTOT just to make the point that you are a naught little brat).
Peter wrote:
This is certainly possible because I have done it, but I bet you that it is not possible at many bigger airports, because it would be an obvious workaround for a CTOT
But I was talking about VFR takeoff inside your IFR CTOT window -5/10, it’s not a workaround CTOT, if tower ATC and PIC are happy with it, who can say no? (other than God)
What is not possible is to depart (VFR or IFR) outside your IFR CTOT window and ask for en-route clearance, you will have to orbit or land while things gets edited
What is not possible is to depart (VFR or IFR) outside your IFR CTOT window and ask for en-route clearance
It is possible; I’ve done it. But as I said I don’t think many places will let you do it because you need to trust the tower to not cancel the IFR plan which they know is in the system 
Peter wrote:
It is possible; I’ve done it. But as I said I don’t think many places will let you do it because you need to trust the tower to not cancel the IFR plan which they know is in the system
I forgot to add “against the will of the tower” did you had an en-route clearance by the phone? or just freestyle departure and hoping it works?
I recall a funny story in Paris when tower ATC suddenly switched OFF by the time we went to fuel the aircraft and we got an automated recording, I opted to taxi and depart uncontrolled after getting clearance by phone but tower switched ON again as we left the CTR
Later on we were told by en-route ATC what actually happened: they were attacked by flies & insects (“problem de mouches et d’insects”), it would have made my day if they have a CTOT code for that !
Peter wrote:
This is certainly possible because I have done it, but I bet you that it is not possible at many bigger airports,
It’s not because the problem is not the Tower or CTR it controls but the souurounding airspace Charlie – the Tower can not clear you for this airspace Charlie and departure ATC is unlikely to give it to you either as they immediately would have the same separation issue because of which the Tower would not clear your IFR departure.
Of course the Tower is more than happy to clear you for VFR departure (and let you leave the CTR below airspace Charlie). The Tower is not necessarily your friend in these situations – they have a “problem solved” when you leave VFR and do not really care if there is any legal way for you to get to a fix on your IFR flight plan where you might hope for pickup…
Malibuflyer wrote:
they have a “problem solved” when you leave VFR and do not really care if there is any legal way for you to get to a fix on your IFR flight plan where you might hope for pickup
I agree they are not solving your problem, they are solving their problem and kicking your problem down the road but the airport runway usually has more limiting capacity than the surrounding airspace around it? (maybe except busy TMA that are shared with with load of runways)
They won’t have offered him VFR departure if there was no easy fix for his situation in the air: in Charlie they will separate VFR from IFR tactically above Radar MVA, so picking up IFR while airborne is “easy” when the bubble is already there he just needs to be airborne at CTOT-5/10 to get his en-route clearance, it’s VFR/IFR and IFR/IFR separation bellow MVA that is tricky (needs more time and controllers don’t have leeway on this), if one can use their eyes on takeoff to confirm they can see traffic or terrain it helps, they will put you aside untill they have an opening for you and it will work but there are other risks for thag sort of VFR near big airports: getting tossed in wake turbulence, overwhelmed by heavy metal radio, busting noise areas, busting airspace, losing coms, losing visual, losing situational awarness or control after 6th instruction…
Peter wrote:
This is totally confused. ATC doesn’t manipulate CTOTs. They come out of the computer in IFPS.
Well, I can’t see it now, but in the flight history log.
There was an ATC DPI message by EDDL
As well as an FSA message when I got airborne by EDDL.Emir wrote:
I used to get CTOT as early as 16 hours in advance.
As soon as you file the FPL you’ll get a CTOT. About 1hr later, I got an Early DPI message, again by EDDL and not IFPS. EDDL was the AFTN address.
Ibra wrote:
I think tower ATC suggested him to take this option?
I haven’t re-listened to the audio but it was something to do with LANGEN not allowing me to depart close behind an airliner IFR. I was offered VFR by the tower but then waited for a few more departures before being allowed in between a landing. It was purely the ATCO trying to help me get away, but she came back and said they’ve released me. Will be a few more minutes.
pilotrobbie wrote:
As soon as you file the FPL you’ll get a CTOT
I don’t know if I’m completely missing something but this isn’t making sense to me now. A CTOT is not a formality, you may not be issued with one at all. It can also be issued hours before departure, minutes before departure or even AT departure.
Also DPI/FSA messages do not really have anything to do with CTOTs (simplifying) and may be sent whether you have a CTOT or not.
Pirho wrote:
or even AT departure.
Really? I thought CTOT after off block is not possible ?!? For SEP it might only be an inconvenience, but for heavy metal it might be a challenge in terms of fuel if they get a one hour delay with running engines at the holding point….
