Flying in Germany with BZF E

dublinpilot wrote:

I can’t believe that the AIP itself is law. Otherwise it would surely have to be freely available.

Is there really a law behind it specifying everything in the German AIP? Is there really a law listing which airports German must be spoken at, and which English can be spoken at?

I have absolutely not been precise in my language. Actually you are right that in many cases the AIP is not the law itself but “only summarizes” the laws and regulations. Therefore formally I should have written “there is nobody who could overrule the law/regulations that inform the AIP”.
And the airport operator, Flugleiter, etc. can obviously (just as any other pilot or non pilot) inform you, that there is an error in the AIP as it is not reflecting the actual law. But that is a special case and not the one discussed here.
The language spoken on the airfield information frequency is part of the frequency assignment – and therefore a binding rule.

dublinpilot wrote:

Is there a law specifying the opening hours listed in the AIP? Does it really require law changes to stay open later than normal on a Saturday to facility a flyin because the opening hours are listed in the AIP?

It absolutely is and does! Opening hours are a battleground on every single airfield I know and are clearly specified in the airport approval. Even Fraport can not freely decide if they have EDDF open for an hour more on the weekend and ATC must only make exceptions to mitigate dangers.dublinpilot wrote:

Malibuflyer wrote:

It absolutely is and does! Opening hours are a battleground on every single airfield I know and are clearly specified in the airport approval. Even Fraport can not freely decide if they have EDDF open for an hour more on the weekend and ATC must only make exceptions to mitigate dangers

You guys are really rule based! Even more than the stereotype would have me believe!

MikeWhiskey wrote:

And this seems in-line with EASA FCL55:

FCL.055 Language proficiency
(a) General. Aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship pilots required to use the radio telephone shall not exercise the privileges of their licences and ratings unless they have a language proficiency endorsement on their licence in either English or the language used for radio communications involved in the flight

Exactly! English LP always overwrites the local language. I’ve got this confirmation from several people, including my LP examinators and the local CAA. Actually, if you have an English LP, all other LP’s are more or less useless in EASA-land.

ch.ess wrote:

(Just to make sure: i find the Flugleiter obligation unnecessary and stupid, and consider myself lucky to fly from an airfield with such exception…)

But even on airfields where you can fly without a Flugleiter, someone must be on site. It’s very sad that it is illegal to take-off or land at an unattended airfield in Germany, except for safety or emergency landings. Even those UL-airfields need to have someone on-site, how could call SAR in case something happens and how has access to the radio. This can be the chef of the airfields restaurant or some guy of a maintenance company, which is located on the airfields property.

Sebastian_G wrote:

So as they need that search and rescue anyway they make the person talk on the radio and provide some AFIS and German pilots will expect that.

Personally, I have the feeling that quite a few German pilots think that they use the radios to communicate with the Flugleiter only, instead of blind reports for other traffic. Especially because a lot of Flugleiters confirm your position reports with a “roger” or two klicks on the frequency. Maybe this is why some Flugleiters also like to play controller with some instructions like: “You are number two for landing, report base”. Terrible!

Malibuflyer wrote:

Actually you are right that in many cases the AIP is not the law itself but “only summarizes” the laws and regulations. Therefore formally I should have written “there is nobody who could overrule the law/regulations that inform the AIP”.
And the airport operator, Flugleiter, etc. can obviously (just as any other pilot or non pilot) inform you, that there is an error in the AIP as it is not reflecting the actual law.

Just to give some additional information towards @dublinpilot: Each German airfield has a so-called “Betriebsgenehmigung” (operating license), which is unfortunately not always available to the public. Some airfields post it on their website, others don’t and it is mostly in German language only. The AIP is just a summarization of the operating license, but the license includes much more stuff, for example: How may operate under NVFR if available (only home-based or also external pilots), are safety vests mandatory on the apron yes/no, does a Flugleiter have to be on-site or may also someone else do the “guy/girl on-site” job, during which times are take-offs and landings permitted (AIP could just say “PPR”) etc. etc.

Frans wrote:

English LP always overwrites the local language. I’ve got this confirmation from several people, including my LP examinators and the local CAA.

I wish you good luck to discuss this legal opinion with some officials at a French airfield if they really want to go after you.

Frans wrote:

FCL.055 Language proficiency
(a) General. Aeroplane, helicopter, powered-lift and airship pilots required to use the radio telephone shall not exercise the privileges of their licences and ratings unless they have a language proficiency endorsement on their licence in either English or the language used for radio communications involved in the flight

And very formally: Technically it does only say that the privileges of your PPL must not be exercised if you do not have the English or the local LP. So practically if you have only e.g. a German language certificate (and no English or French one) and conduct a flight from Germany to a French “French only” airfield, you not only do a minor “administrative transgression” of not having the right LP, but you committed the crime of operating an aircraft without a license at all!

The other way round, it does say that you are allowed to exercise the privilege of your PPL if you have an English LP – it does not at all say that you are also actually entitled to do radio communication in French, German or Kisuaheli in that case. Doing radio communication in any language is not a privilege of a PPL, CPL or SEP class rating!

dublinpilot wrote:

You guys are really rule based! Even more than the stereotype would have me believe!

Well as always, it depends. Where I am based we do have the possibility to fly without “Flugleiter”, and I’m lovin’ it. :-)

Flying microlights (which is based on German regulation in Germany, and not EASA regulation stuff) you are (comparatively) quite free to do and go where you want to. As I pointed out, even without any “permission to talk” (and even without COM device, however not recommended).

Yes it is somewhat annoying to check the opening hours – additionally during pandemia, where this is subject to change from one day to the next. And although I agree that we should quit on this tradition, it does have benefits. Just to give one example, which – for me – is worth it: On practically any landing there is someone close by who has at least some training in the use of a fire extinguisher and first aid, and typically can help you out of the pile of aluminum chunks from your non-scheduled landing mishap within minutes. I appreciate that. However, as I said before, I agree that there’s no point in making that a mandatory requirement for operation of an aerodrome.

Malibuflyer wrote:

Even Fraport can not freely decide if they have EDDF open for an hour more on the weekend and ATC must only make exceptions to mitigate dangers.

I do not get the point with the fraport argument in this thread. Frankfurt EDDF has opening hours which are limited by means of court decisions up to the federal high court, main arguments are noise abatement and/or environmental protection. You do not have to share this opinion, but to mix it with the “Flugleiter” requirement seems not appropriate to me. In EDDF you cannot land at night, even if you were willing to pay a fortune.

By the way, as far as I know EDDF in fact is open 24h, which is also during the night, but T/O and LDG is prohibited and some exceptions exist according to the AIP.

Malibuflyer wrote:

I wish you good luck to discuss this legal opinion with some officials at a French airfield if they really want to go after you.

Give me at least one official report where non-French pilots got prosecuted for operating the radios in French, without having a French LP or RT. I’ve heard “wild” stories, but never heard a directly affected person or saw any proof of any prosecution. Bosco explains this whole matter very well on his German website.

UdoR wrote:

Where I am based we do have the possibility to fly without “Flugleiter”, and I’m lovin’ it. :-)

But you’ll have someone on-site during your take-off, right? As written in my post before, taking off on a completely unattended airfield is unfortunately not allowed in Germany, even when the operator’s license allows movements without a Flugleiter. There are however pilots how doing that anyway, and the question is of course if someone could get prosecuted for it. The risk will be very small I guess, as long as the airfield’s owner is OK with it.

Frans wrote:

But you’ll have someone on-site during your take-off, right?

Yes that’s correct.

UdoR wrote:

Frankfurt EDDF has opening hours which are limited by means of court decisions up to the federal high court, main arguments are noise abatement and/or environmental protection. You do not have to share this opinion, but to mix it with the “Flugleiter” requirement seems not appropriate to me.

The opening hours are technically not limited by a court decision but by the operating license of the airport (which in turn was changed due to court decision). And the airport operator (and therefore the “Flugleiter” as its representative) does not have the power to overrule this operating licenses.

This absolutely has nothing to do with the “flugleiter” requirement but only with the fact that even a Flugleiter (if he is present) can not allow you to disregard regulations like the ones documented in the AIP. Therefore calling a Flugleiter does legally not help if you want to land on a “German only” airfield – despite the fact Sebastian pointed out that it is less likely the Flugleiter files a complaint against you after he agreed explicitly to what you did…

And the airport operator (and therefore the “Flugleiter” as its representative) does not have the power to overrule this operating licenses.

This absolutely has nothing to do with the “flugleiter” requirement but only with the fact that even a Flugleiter (if he is present) can not allow you to disregard regulations like the ones documented in the AIP. Therefore calling a Flugleiter does legally not help if you want to land on a “German only” airfield

If the airfield operator (we are talking about aeroclub-airfields and the likes) finds a “flugleiter” who is capable to do English RT, that does not necessarily mean to “disregard regulations” as German RT is still provided.

I would prefer to keep the topic to a real-life environment where a pilot without German RT licence wants to (or considers to) use a German-only airfield; not to a (to my taste) rather wildly theoretical case-study whether someone could be potentially sued because of that. So, FWIW, I still would just call the airfield to discuss.

Ultimately the problem is that indeed many airfields that are listed as “Ge” in the AP pose no practical problem for non-German speakers. One example is Leer-Papenburg EDWF, one of the most popular GA airports in Germany, situated near both the Dutch border and the East Frisian Islands.

I did my PPL there, so I have lots of experience with R/T in that circuit. While the AIP says “Ge”, all Flugleiter are capable of speaking English and additionally some basic Dutch and of course their native Low German (“Plattdeutsch”). They are very welcoming to foreigners and will go out of their way to welcome them. The chances of getting into legal trouble without a formal German language R/T certificate/LP are sub 0.1%. I’ve experienced several pilots doing the initial call in English, and it was no problem, never.

Of course, there is no way for non-locals to know about that, except for PIREPs.