Operating and Flying a 1970 Piper Arrow, and operating costs discussion

Thanks a lot for these informations, I am also interested into an arrow III in easa reg and it gives me a lot to think about.

For comparison, first year “spending” on a PA28 Cherokee (fixed gear, fixed prop). I’ll save the details for a later, separate thread.

The table is a bit skewed. This is a 50/50 partnership and Avgas as well as landing fees are only for roughly 50% of the hours, while all other costs are 100%.

Peter wrote:

A starter is much less than 1.7k. Take a look at Skytec prices. But, yeah, I once paid 1.8k to Socata in France, for a €300 starter, so been there, got the t-shirt

Fireproof fuel hoses are much less than the above too. Hoses are a persistent issue in GA, with maint. companies obviously preferring to go the gold plated route, but hose fabricators (I use Saywell in Worthing, UK)

Wow, thanks Peter for those tips. Something to note it down for later use, for the case something was needed.

And thanks to @Patrick and @Snoopy for sharing the costs. I go with the group stating that better not to know exactly what has been spent. However, doing the maintenance myself I am way lower in the costs with my Comanche.

I also do not safe money on something like hourly basis for engine replacement. Because I’d repair the engine any time over doing a full replacement, and pulling a cylinder doesn’t count anyhow. Even to TBO I have about a decade to go – not saying that I was willing to replace the engine on TBO. So I don’t see the benefit of fictitiously putting money in a bank account for that reason. Of course, if I wasn’t flying alone, but in a share, I’d also do it because it’s fair among the group (however I don’t even request that from my brother when he’s flying).

Following up in my post above, a local US A&P, who does Piper wing attachment inspections IAW the relevant AD, tells me he gets about $500 to do them. Of this amount about $150 goes to the certified ultrasonic inspector, who shows up from the other side of the airport by appointment. Some planes have cost a bit more due to difficultly removing the wing bolts. A couple of planes have failed the inspection (these are typically ultra high time FBO owned airframes) and he subsequently installed and replacement wing and carry through structure on one plane, a big job.

More details on my own plane go something like this…

The hose replacement ‘campaign’ was done over two years, at Annual time. We replaced some although not all of the fittings, as well as the hose, and they are not cheap. I installed the fittings, after getting instruction on doing it from my A&P (a different guy than the one above), he pressure checked them and I installed them. The whole thing probably cost $1K over two years, for every flexible hose on the plane except the brake hoses.

I haven’t needed to touch the starter on my plane, but I did replace the alternator because virtually everything on the plane is electrically driven, and the unit was original 1971 issue. An overhauled replacement was about $500 IIRC, in 2010 dollars. Haven’t touched it since.

The wiring on the plane was a total mess when I got it, and yet another A&P helped me with that, working Saturdays for a number of weeks to remove unused wiring, replace some, clean up what was left and so on. $1000 cash, he wanted to help me and certainly did so.

I also replaced rubber isolation bushings in the main landing gear once and rebuilt the nose gear twice over 10 years. The parts cost probably $1500 combined, and I worked together with an A&P on the MLG, bumping up the labor for the Annual to $500 that year.

Some instruments and radios have needed service here and there, probably $1000 total over a decade. The transponder was replaced in 2019, $3K installed. The GTX 335 was bought in a discounted group buy of multiple units, and the installation was done by the same guy who did the wiring cleanup.

I do a lot of ‘little jobs’ on the plane under A&P ‘supervision’, he needs to be ‘immediately available’ to come over and have a look, and signs off the work when complete. Upcoming examples will be replacement of four metalastic aileron linkage bushings and both control sticks, which somebody inexplicably shortened in the 70s. I have new parts for all that cost, about $500. The new sticks came from old stock held by an FBO.

If I add everything I’ve done to maintain the plane over 12 years, the total is at or under $25K, or perhaps $2K a year. The engine is a significant unknown for the future. My O-320 would probably go longer before overhaul than I will own the plane, and when I bought the plane I negotiated the price down from $50K to $35K on the basis (among other things) of the mid-time engine being about 40 years since assembly at that time. It’s still working well 11 years later, flown 50 hrs or less a year, but I’m thinking one of these days I’ll overhaul it to satisfy my curiosity about corrosion and cam/lifter spalling. An engine overhaul could double the total amount I’ve spent to maintain the plane, although it would be less if I did it myself with A&P supervision, like everything else. Figuring out the best way to go forward if/when an engine overhaul happens will take some research. The money is not the main issue, I am concerned just as much that it’ll be a good overhaul that doesn’t make a good existing engine worse, not better.

Maintaining a plane at reasonable cost requires a hangar to work within, which itself isn’t cheap. I consider hangar rent to be part of our monthly housing cost, effectively space added to the house that I use for all sorts of fun things including storing the plane. I won’t ever give it up unless forced to do so. The combined cost is low enough, e.g. hangar rent effectively adds only about 25% additional to our mortgage cost.

Patrick wrote:

total operating cost for our 1970 Piper Arrow

It should be a 200 as this last one started selling in 1969.

I’m a Pa28R200 Arrow II owner and your numbers sounds slightly different to mine.
Basically my insurance bill is around 6K/y (but for 80K value) while maintenance (even if my plane is under CAMO supervision) is somewhat around 8K during ‘21. Prop OH still ok for 4 years. Now I’m forced to consider a a new digital cockpit since mine is still analogic and it seems way too inadequate for IFR flights (Garmin, Dynon … dunno).

Congrats for your plane Patrick.

Gladio wrote:

Now I’m forced to consider a a new digital cockpit since mine is still analogic and it seems way too inadequate for IFR flights

Look into an Aspen 1000 or two of the the Garmin D5, it’s not all too expensive nowadays to get some (I’d say sufficient) glass into the cockpit.

Your insurance bill sounds quite hefty to me. My Comanche despite having it insured with all 6 seats (it is typically treated as a 4-seater insurance-wise) is way cheaper (about 1/4 of your costs), and I too have hull insurance as well as third party insurance. Can it be that Italy is so much more costly in this respect?

Edit: I see Snoopy ticks about the same costs for insurance than I do.

23k€ for how many hours in a 160hp Cherokee ?
Looks hefty