Jujupilote wrote:
23k€ for how many hours in a 160hp Cherokee ?
Looking at the fuel bill, I’d reckon about 40 hours?
This is the first year of operation which is usually a bit more expensive than later ones.
But both these calculations give a good indication why the “magic number” of ownership is approximately 100 hrs per year, where the cost of renting and owning keep about a balance. Personally, I have a lower number I like to use which is 60 hours, which is the time you can do without a 50 hour check p.a but already there the per hour price of a self owned plane will mostly be more expensive than a rental.
The Mooney has had an average of 30k CHF per year over the last 11 years and has usually flown between 50 and 70 hours.
I’d never compare owning and renting only with regards to price per hour. Because either you have lots to do for maintenance or you pay a bill for that.
The most important thing is availability. I never felt so privileged in my flying life like now, if everything else fits in (work, kids, weather, etc.) which by itself is already enough on conditions, I just go to where I want to. And if not, I go the next weekend. Before, I had to make a reservation in the club and had to hope that all would fit in. But most of the times it did not. And whenever you notice that you won’t be able to go you never could just change the reservation to the next weekend or so, because it was NEVER available. This was sooooo frustrating.
I just don’t care what price per hour might result for my flying, however it really isn’t that much.
UdoR wrote:
I just don’t care what price per hour might result for my flying, however it really isn’t that much.
That is a preferential thing. If you are your own boss and can do with your finances what you want, you have less care than those who need to justify ownership to spouses or other interests.
The per hour cost is one factor which can give you an idea how ownership compares to renting. it is one factor amongst many.
For most, including myself, availability is a huge factor, probably the decisive one.
Another is the fact that you can choose what to install in your plane.
And so on. This being a thread about cost of ownership however, i consider this factor something which is worth looking at.
Working on a budget and being clear that you can actually afford the purchase, is one of the vital things necessary to make darn sure that airplane ownership won’t turn into a financial disaster. Way too many prospective owners have run into massive problems by looking at it with a pink shaded sunglass. That is why I consider such threads really worth looking at.
I’d never compare owning and renting only with regards to price per hour. Because either you have lots to do for maintenance or you pay a bill for that.
I agree. Ownership is fantastic and it is impossible to put a price tag on it.
It is easy to die with millions in the bank. Just work hard, spend nothing, and keep your trousers zipped up.
There is of course a lot of detail and it comes out in these discussions. Some of the operating cost numbers I see would make me want to kill myself. Not over the money but over the hassle and downtime, and the lack of trust in the aircraft while flying it.
Peter wrote:
Ownership is fantastic and it is impossible to put a price tag on it.
That may be all right for some who can pay for their planes out of pocket money. For everyone else, knowing the costs and to be able to afford it is very important. For new owners who only see the price tag for buying the plane, it is a sure recipe for disaster not to know what to expect.
Peter wrote:
It is easy to die with millions in the bank. Just work hard, spend nothing, and keep your trousers zipped up.
That one goes in the same category as “if you have to ask what it costs, you can’t afford it”. I personally reject both those notions as they are mainly true for the uppermost financial classes. And knowing some people who don’t only proclaim they are “really rich” during presidential campains but actually are really rich, quite a few of those are the ones who are the most tight on spending. And if we are on about monikers: “You learn about saving money from the rich people” is one which probably makes a lot more sense.
If you want to operate a plane on a simple workers salary, you better know as exactly what it’s gonna cost and if you really can afford it. Otherwise, you end up in a place very few will emerge from without loosing a lot more than “just” the plane.
I certainly can’t pay for the TB20 and flying it out of “pocket money”. But somehow I manage to run it for about 1/4 of some numbers I hear.
However – a plane has to be paid for somehow. The sum today of costs cannot exceed the sum today of money put in. It doesn’t matter whether it is sole owned, syndicate, or rental. Well, the last two of those three categories are hosting a lot of flyers who think “somebody else” will fund it 
And this is why there are so many syndicates which barely hang together, and why renting a PA28 is £250/hr (over here). £250/hr??? It costs £500 to take your girlfriend from Shoreham to Le Touquet!! Completely and totally mad. Well, she might be worth it, but there are very few girls who are worth that much, especially on a recurrent basis 
Same old solutions: do a good prebuy (to avoid getting a dog), and set up a good “ground setup”. Being N-reg can be a big help too
I have no idea how much I spend per hour on flying, nor do I know how many hours I flew last year. I don’t know that stuff any more that I know how much I spend per hour to sit in my house. Minimizing cost per hour is not my goal, living my life is my goal.
I do know that my total aircraft ownership cost is almost in the noise relative to my other monthly expenses and saving, that I’m careful to make it so, and that my energy is best focused on working to make money versus creating spreadsheets to provide data on cost per flying hour.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
That may be all right for some who can pay for their planes out of pocket money. For everyone else, knowing the costs and to be able to afford it is very important. For new owners who only see the price tag for buying the plane, it is a sure recipe for disaster not to know what to expect.
True! I was always kind of thinking that for a simpler a/c (Piper Cherokee/Arrow) in the UK you look at ~£1K/month fixed costs in total, after initial problems has been resolved and an engine fund is formed. And that is how I put it in my head – that it is a fixed cost for an exclusive access to an aircraft. And on top you pay for all the costs that depend on hours flown (variable costs). But as you have pointed out, quite a few non-owners don’t think about those.
Capitaine joined the Arrow crowd too, let’s see what he writes.
I came to the conclusion the only way to afford a plane would be for the two of us to stick to Power Point BS jobs that would make us mad in exchange for €€. We value our sanity.
Maybe a permit plane someday.
Jujupilote wrote:
I came to the conclusion the only way to afford a plane would be for the two of us to stick to Power Point BS jobs that would make us mad in exchange for €€. We value our sanity.
Well looking at the numbers here, I am quite satisfied with the way I’ve done it and which has saved me from having to dump the plane over the last 4 years. Have a good, reliable and close to you friends fly your plane in the time you don’t need it, but own it straight out. I could never have operated that Mooney without that, I can come up with maybe 1/3rd of the operating costs by myself, the rest is recovered by renting out.
Peter wrote:
£250/hr??? It costs £500 to take your girlfriend from Shoreham to Le Touquet!! Completely and totally mad. Well, she might be worth it, but there are very few girls who are worth that much, especially on a recurrent basis
Look at the numbers you see here. In the end, if you have an average of €25 to 30k p.a. to operate, that means at 100 hrs per year that plane costs between 250 and 300 Euros per hour, which is exactly what @Patrick quoted in the OP. Looking at fuel figures and doing a rough guestimate on some others, one had 23k @ about 50 hours, which makes it €460 per hour. For a PA28-150. Those are the figures and they are pretty average. The Mooney has been on rent for 350 CHF approx in the last few years and it was considered a great deal looking at some similar IFR planes in the vicinity, they are mostly in the 400-450 CHF/hr range.
As for girlfriends…. most of them won’t fly in small planes anyhow, but if so, they might as a GF but will have a fit as a wife if they ever find out the cost.
