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Totally embarrassed by a commercial pilot...

Back to the original post, wow, that guy was an idiot, I wish I had been there, it must have been interesting. I’m glad the OP stuck to his guns.

Clearly the guy had no clue about the G1000 or other similar modern avionics technologies, so should have said so, rather than talking like 20,000 hours gives him automatic authority in subjects he hasn’t bothered to education himself on.

I flew recently with an old guy who had 1000’s of hours in bizjets, hadn’t flown for many years and was getting back into some private flying. He was struggling with the G1000, and even more so with iPads, Foreflight, etc. But he was smart enough to realise this and was working hard to get comfortable with them, rather than banging on about NDBs.

Generally, I find it a bit tedious when people talk about how many thousands of hours they have. Unless perhaps it is in fighters, or test flying!

I doubt this particular guy is a particularly safe pilot based on his behaviour.


I am sorry and deeply embarrassed by your experience.

I did not have the time to go trough all the answers of the threat.

I can tell you this:

1) what you do with ndb approaches (or ANY non precision approach) is perfectly legal
2) it is encouraged by the airlines.
3) makes sense.
4) it is call RNAV overlay.
5) be wary of airlines pilots. Most of them (especially those that flew for just one operator) have no clue. Really NO CLUE. How do I now? I am one of them…

take care and fly safe

I find the idea that the airline business would not use a GPS overly for a NDB approach preposterous,

We do! (Virgin) Which airline did that plonker work for?

Spending too long online
EGTF Fairoaks, EGLL Heathrow, United Kingdom

Neil wrote:

kwlf wrote:

At least in the UK university fees have just become such that you can probably do a modular course for the same price as an university degree

The maximum tuition fee is £9,000 per year. The usual degree course is 3 years. Where can you get a modular ATPL course for £27,000???

27k buys you tuition fees. On top of that, you have to pay for food and lodging for 3 years. 5k a year adds 15k onto the minimum price of a degree. But the kids whose parents could afford to pay pilot training fees up-front might expect a rather higher standard of living. Given that you can complete pilot training in a year, then start earning (whether as a pilot or not), you might also expect to pocket an additional 30k or more in the two years you save over doing an university degree.

When you take these things into account, pilot training looks like very good value – if you get a job at the end of it.

lenthamen, That sounds like a terrible experience. Did he explain why he held these beliefs other than just postulating? Did he ever use any of this equipment to give such judgements? After all if it was that inaccurate the FAA in all its cautious and expensive wisdom would never have allowed GPS for approaches. This guy is so far out in left field as to not even be on the playing field. (In short totally outrageous). He obviously had an inferiority complex which he was trying to hide by being aggressive.


The other thing is that most people come out of university knowing just about approximately nothing useful. If they are employable it isn’t because they learnt anything. The whole idea of univ education is to “learn how to think”, how to be critical of everything, how to do research, how to become a communist (in my days; nowadays you get body piercings and tatoos) etc. Plus it’s a great way to spend 3 years of your life, 18-21, getting pissed, when otherwise you would be doing some low paid job, also getting pissed.

Seeing how hard it is to find airline jobs (due to the massive over-supply of CPL/IRs with 150hrs) the two are probably comparable

On the topic, unfortunately this dinosaur is not alone up there at FL300+. And there is a number of them in ATC especially ATC management (I mean NATS UK). I have been to a number of seminars which were stuffed with these types and if I was susceptible to depression I would have topped myself walking out of the door. One was a “Eurocontrol navigation workshop” c. 2008 (I still have the notes from it) and the others were ATC presentations. Yet, London Control is nowadays absolutely superb…

So I feel it is important for us to not give these dinosaurs yet more ammunition, by departing e.g. without approach plates and asking ATC for the ILS frequency

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

@ chrisparker

We do! (Virgin) Which airline did that plonker work for?

We (LH) also flew GPS or INS overlay approaches from day one (of glass cockpits) on … it was of great help i.e. in the simulator flying one eng out NDB approaches …
BTW this guy’s vita does not sound like having been with a big carrier regarding his " test- / ferrypilot " occupation and a small aircraft type rating at the end of his career.

Last Edited by nobbi at 13 Nov 10:26
EDxx, Germany

Anybody who behaves like that has a different problem anyway … I think he was just some neurotic idiot


You name it – good closing words

EDxx, Germany

lenthamen wrote:

Earlier this week I went to a lecture by a 737 captain on avionics.
The presenter was a senior pilot with 20K hours and 10 different type ratings (this was repeated several times during the presentation).
He was working in the test/ferry business. I was one of the few GA pilots in the audience.

When discussing NDB’s I told him I always use a GPS overlay when flying a NDB approach because of the inaccuracy of NDBs.
Then all hell broke loose: He started yelling at me that I should never do that and I was going to kill myself. I was put down as an irresponsible pilot.

WTF? In a polite way I tried to refute his rant: That I also use ADF and DME. And that I was trained to use all equipment on board and this includes the G1000 GPSes which are certified for IFR usage.
Then it became truly embarrassing: He started ranting on the G1000. That it is inaccurate, with an incomplete database and that the knobs were too little to operate in turbulence.

The audience loved it but I found it very embarrassing.

So you are saying you are right, and a 20k hour senior pilot with 10 different ratings are wrong?

To me, the process of using a GPS “overlay” for a non precision approach seems a bit dubious. Could you explain what exactly this means.

The elephant is the circulation
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