A student pilot says "Hello EuroGA"

MedEwok wrote:

Reading these forums actually made me MORE anxious about stall practice, as I tend to follow what_next’s line of thought that stall practice itself is probably more dangerous than simply practicing stall avoidance at all times…

That reasoning is mostly used for spin training vs spin avoidance training. Stall practice is very standard in PPL training and you will do it in any type you will be checked out later.

Either I am a wimp or all this simply needs a few times to get used to.

The latter. I remember really getting scared by my first stall in the C152 (my regular PPL trainer). After a few more, it was much better, but the real improvement came after doing a 30-min flight practicing stalls and spins in a Z142. That things stalls and spins violently, but very predictably. When I went back to the C152, stalls became non event. If you have the possibility, I’d suggest you to book a lesson in an aerobatic (or at least spin approved) plane to do some more agressive manoeuvres. It will show you how much you are in the clear with your regular trainer.

@MedEwok you are spot on that avoiding a stall is way the most important thing. The place where most PPLs stall inadvertently (well those that do it) is on the base to final turn, and then the result is a likely spin, and you will never recover from ~1000ft AGL. So watching the airspeed is essential (at all phases of flight, especially departures and approaches) and then the whole issue goes away.

You can still stall during higher speeds simply by pulling Gs but the recovery from that is quick and easy: reduce the G. The other place for a stall, which I have done many times when trying to outclimb weather, is when trying to reach the operating ceiling of the aircraft, especially on autopilot but you aren’t likely to be doing that anytime soon

One can also stall during high workload phases because one gets busy elsewhere. A student pilot on a solo flight got killed a few years ago here, when asked to do an orbit for spacing. The best safeguard against that is to be trimmed for the desired speed.

I agree 2000ft is too low. It’s fine if you do it exactly right i.e. recover (from a fully developed stall; altimeter unwinding fast) within a few hundred feet, but it’s no good for training the stuff. I used to easily lose 1000ft in the dreadful PA38 which dropped a wing and plummeted like a brick. Also 2000ft exposes you to a lot more traffic; most GA flies low for the scenic view and if you come down to 1500ft you will be dropping into that zone. I would use 4000ft minimum when training.

I am not an instructor but then neither are most people here.

As for the clean stall practice my instructor wanted to do it at 2000ft AGL and this seemed a little too low for me.

Our school uses 3000 ft AGL, and that is plenty for a trainer with benign stall characteristics such as a DR400 or C152. It’s important to realise that some aircraft are less forgiving in a stall (sudden wing drop, which may lead to a spin). In that case, 4000 ft is no luxury.

Aren’t you learning in an Aquila? I never found clean configuration a problem, but it does feel jittery, especially for a student, with full flap. Not quite the same ‘non-event’ feeling as stall practice in a DR400 or C152

I am curious as to what is required in terms of stall in pilot training these days. When I trained in the PA38 we did full stalls with spin entry, but I do not remember having ever lost as much as 1000 ft. Probably more like 500. In later times I have been asked to break the stall at the first sign of the stall warning, or onset of buffet.

Given the very different stall characteristics between airplanes, I think there are airplanes in which it may be safe to practice stalls at 2000", but there are others in which I would definitely not want to do that. The PA38 was mentioned. I don’t know about the Aquila, but it looks pretty benign.

This is the A210, but they are doing stalls even at 1000’ AMSL

Of course if you maintain the stick all the way back and cross the rudder and ailerons, you’re asking for it in any airplane.

I was never worried about stalling, but back in those days there were very few Internet forums so I did whatever the instructor told me without fear.

If you are apprehensive about stalls I think you should share your fears with your instructor who I am sure will address them.

Aviathor wrote:

I was never worried about stalling, but back in those days there were very few Internet forums so I did whatever the instructor told me without fear.

I think that is very important. Concentrate on doing what your instructor say and does, and do as he does. It is the only thing that matters. He/she may have lots of “flaws”, but he is your instructor. Don’t think too much – do. Well, it is a good idea to rehears in your head all the things you are supposed to do, so you will do them correct. If you start to question what he does, then chances are, you are thinking way too much, rather than he is doing questionable things. All in all, maintain focused. Do what your instructor tells you, and do it correct.

I know from personal experience, it is very easy for a “educated and free thinker” to wonder off into the land of theories. But all that is really a lack of focus and lack of self discipline. If you want to get your PPL, the fastest way is to brace yourself and to the things your instructor tells you. When you eventually get your PPL, then you can do things the way you think is correct.

MedEwok wrote:

don’t think I can ever handle 60 degrees,

You will. Just keep the nose up – don’t let it drop. And if it drops, reduce the bank, bring the nose back up, and then roll back to 60°

Hello Leonard,

just now read through the whole thread and would like to extend a warm welcome to you as well!

You picked the most frustrating season learning how to fly but in fact you will find you did yourself a big favour as you have flown in bad weather. Many new PPL’s have not and therefore will either be very uneasy doing so for good reason or underestimate it and get in trouble. Learning to fly in these conditions can be frustrating but you will find that summer flying after a winter of learning will be quite a pleasurable letdown from quite some anxiety to “is it really that nice?” when the weather is good.

You are in a great area for flying, mostly flat terrain and great landscape, plus in reach of wonderful areas to fly to. You’ll enjoy the islands and other mostly quite carefree trips this summer I hope (well, the weather does not always correspond but at least your area offers plenty of alternatives in such cases).

Some remarks:

Someone suggested to wait 200 hrs before carrying family. If you need that much, then something was wrong in your instruction, badly. What I can offer as advice is to do the same you probably did after passing your drivers test: take it easy and slow. Then however, there is no reason you should not take your wife and kids(s) along, even though the new arrival will need to wait a bit, if the conditions are nice and you do routes you have done before and know well. Trip around the airfield, show them where you live from above (if possible) or take them for a nice ice cream to one of the many airfields nearby. Spread your wings carefully but by all means do spread them. I have one good friend who did his PPL not too long ago with a very unenthusiastic wife about it, but once she found out that she is now 1 hour flight time to the beaches, she has a good reason to like it.

As for airplanes which can carry your family as you describe it, there are many. Actually, most 4 seaters were done with the 2+2 family in mind, so most airplanes can do that unless baggage gets too crazy. But 2 adults, 1 child and 1 infant plus 60 kgs and a buggy, I’d say weight wise most 4 seaters can do that easily while some will struggle with volume. Also think about the fact that for 1-2 nighters you will probably not carry 60 kgs plus buggy, but even if you do, there are planes which can handle that.

Volume wise Cessnas are known for their rather large baggage areas and are also very nice family planes. For rentals, most C172’s and all C182’s will do nicely with your baggage and 2+2. They are also good “first planes” for travellers, as they are quite benign in handling, offer rain protection when getting in and out and have quite spacious cabins. On the same level, any PA28 will initially do. Again, they are very beningn airplanes and great for first time renters. The Cessna is better in the regard that it has two doors.

If you should consider ownership, you will want to plan ahead a bit. However, there are some types which are very good family planes and quite economical to operate too while others will look great but also cost considerably more. If you want advice for that, there will be plenty offered in this forum. On the lower end of the price range, there are many Cherokees and Cessna 172’s available for a variety of prices and conditions, as well as Arrow II’s and vintage Mooneys, all of which can do well as family planes, depending on what kind of travelling you want to do.

I recently got a family settled with an Arrow III and they are very happy, no problem with load and volume (their kids are 5 and 7 I believe). I myself fly a vintage Mooney M20C which also has more than enough load capacity (even though we struggle with the buggy, but now have one which fits) but there are F models (longer cabin) for around the same price range. Both of these are excellent travellers for new PPL’s who will deliver 130-150 kts speed at a marginal higher price than your average fixed gear variant. For even more economy, there are plenty of PA28-180 or Cessna 172’s around. As I said, if that is a goal of yours, you are at the right place.

So have fun finishing your PPL and then enjoy flying!

@MedEvok
You should absolutely train to get these fears under control. 60 degree/2 g steep turns are a lot of fun once you master them, and so are Lazy Eights, Chandelles and other maneuvers for which your trainer is approved. Flying is a really a discipline that has more to with practicing than with talent. what I did: The first years after I got my PPL, on almost every flight I did alone, I did some airwork. Since I had no instruction about the above maneuvers (except the 60 deg. steep turn) I learned them all from books, ony by one. If a steep Chandelle sscares you, well then you start with ery shallow ones, and once those feel natural you make them a little bit steeper. …

One issue with steep turns in a relatively slow plane is that the rate of turn is pretty high at say 60 degrees and 2 G. The world spins across the windshield quickly. You’ll get used to it, and remember that steep turns in a slow plane aren’t usually necessary (due to the basic physics of flying a ground track), and in a faster plane they are generally a bit less disorienting. Learn to do them regardless.

Re stalls, the damn horn in modern certified planes is anxiety producing. A power off stall is actually a gentle sort of thing (watch a model plane to see what I mean) and you’ll get used to it. My instructor at some later stage had me doning so-called falling leaves: in this you hold the plane on the edge of s stall, sinking, and pick up the wings with rudder. No doubt somebody will be along to say its dangerous (I don’t care, once upon a time they taught students aerobatics pre-solo) and for me it was very confidence building, particularly minus the horn.