Which Instrument Rating?

For sure you will be a better all-round pilot if you go to the US and do all your stuff there – PPL, IR – and then come back to Europe and convert to local licenses. US training is very thorough, plus you end up with licenses which are valid for the rest of your life and which no European govt can cancel, amend or take away. The US system is very stable.

But this is a complicated route. It is partly what I did (I did it after getting the UK PPL+IMCR) but that was at a time when the Euro IR was harder, and I had an N-reg plane. Another thing is that you need to run US medicals too which restricts your choice of AMEs.

There are many advantages for aircraft operations too if N-reg but only if you have good contacts for maintenance. Much done in previous threads… Few people are going N-reg today.

Peter wrote:

For sure you will be a better all-round pilot if you go to the US and do all your stuff there – PPL, IR – and then come back to Europe and convert to local licenses. US training is very thorough, plus you end up with licenses which are valid for the rest of your life and which no European govt can cancel, amend or take away. The US system is very stable.

Respectfully, I’m unsure what to base this on. You can surely get a PPL an IR etc in Florida very quickly, I think I can be done in less than 6 weeks realistically. You’ll get a lot of flying, in one very specific area which will be nothing like you will be doing when touring Europe. Does this make you a better real life pilot? I really doubt it. If your aim is GA touring with the family in Europe, get with a proper training facility in Europe and look for instructors that teach European IR flying in small aircraft. Florida will have no icing, you will access to a ton of weather service in flight information etc which you will never get in Europe and which can be pretty offsetting and daunting once you do decide to take that first trip from the UK to Croatia (or wherever will require an Alpine crossing). I ’’tour’’ Europe pretty regularly and still, every time I need to come to the UK as an example, it throws me…
This is just my 2 cents, don’t take this as anything more, but there are some really good instructors out there with real IFR experience in Europe.

Respectfully, I’m unsure what to base this on.

Personal experience of Peter, he is a better all-round pilot if you want stats on N =1 sample

I doubt there is much difference in IR training but I think going to learn an IR in US helps better to open your mind on what you can do with it after getting one

Lot of people there fly pistons as utility travel machine on serious 1000nm trips including weather & night, almost everybody who flies a +120kts machine has an IR !

VFR & IFR in US system are about the same both can fly in straight lines up to FL180 for 1000nm cutting through airspace “with you & rogerring” every ATC on their way, the only difference is who can fly in clouds or get separation…

PS: I did all my IR in Europe but I still enjoyed flying VFR & IFR in US for touring, people do it as normal thing and the infrastructure is there with few limitations, some are regulatory or organisational but the majority is in “pilots heads”

Still very confident things like NCO/SERA, Basic IR, IAP to non-instrument runways will help changing the balance…

Obviously I got my IR in the US (many years ago) and did the conversion here. The primary advantage of doing the rating in the US is the time it takes, as there are many programs designed to help you get it done efficiently, and the theory is one test. Presuming you were ready for the theory test before going there, you could get it done in a few weeks (there are even 10-day programs). The problem is the vast majority of CFIIs are just kids building hours, so the quality of instruction varies widely. Also most US pilots consider the IR oral exam and checkride to be extremely challenging, and I would agree. Mine took half a day and was one of the most stressful experiences of my life.

On the other hand I’ve logged 20 hours of dual instruction in NL for a variety of reasons and with a number of instructors, and every one of those instructors was a highly experienced career instructor, often from a military aviation background. I’m not sure how common this is across Europe, but it was definitely a huge difference from the US. The downside in my experience is the time and hassle of IR training. Spotty availability of instructors, rental aircraft, approaches, and training slots all conspire to add significant time to the process. And of course the theory exams are full of mindless trivia. Useful bits as well, but also loads of crap.

To me the trick is to take the shortest path to start logging real IFR hours, because real IFR flying is nothing like the training environment, where you’re typically logging back-to-back approaches and flying every published holding pattern. This is good practice for learning to fly terminal procedures, but it’s not where you’ll learn how to work the system. That comes after you get your ticket. Seems like the UK’s IR(R) is a good short path to getting some real experience, after which you will have much more confidence to get a full IR, and you can take a bit more time to finish the theory exams.

It must be very different, country to country in Europe. Here there are many ways to the IR or CBIR. For the CBIR you can do the first 30 hours in a club which will usually have an understanding with an ATO. Within the club, the instructor is often a "benevolent " and if you pay any extra for dual, it will be a small amount to cover insurance and possibly petrol money to the airfield.
There are some very good ATO’S in the normal sense of the word, with good FNPT2 flight sims and their own aircraft.
And there are other ATO’S where a CBIR can be taken in your own aircraft, because they don’t actually own any aircraft. They are more like freelance instructors but EASA makes it necessary for them to be an ATO.
Many/most examiners are freelance and there is a list of their names and telephone numbers on the DGAC website. You can telephone them and ask any questions you need answering. On the day of the exam there will be a short oral test, whether that is PPL or CBIR or CPL and that will relate to operational questions and to the flight.
Some ATO’S regularly use the same examiners and some examiners also run ATO’S.
All IR/CBIR and CPL instructors and examiners have ELP. However, some are level4 and might be very nervous about testing a native English speaker.
The theory for the IR/CBIR/CPL is often done through Mermoz. For the IR you spend a week at Rungis near Orly and for the CBIR you spend IIRC 1.5 to 2 days again most of the instructors speak English but French is used most of the time (naturally) You then come away with a pile of books written and prepared within Mermoz. For the IR it is better to go by car. I struggled home on public transport with my stash. Believe me they were heavy. You also get a code to go online, where there is a question bank and you are set tests when you are ready. Your tests are marked and when you have finished them all to the standard required, you will be marked apt in that subject and they will inform the DGAC that you are apt for the exam. You decide when to take the exams and how many you want to take in the day. You then sign up on line, go to the DGAC at Orly, enter a room full of computers and log in. You can take the exams in English or French and you collect your results on the way out.

Amateurish wrote:

Isn’t there a serious risk of being stuck above the clouds? Bear in mind that over Christmas we had 12 minutes of sunshine in 16 days, so it’s pretty extensive!

@Amateurish that is why I specified VMC on top and not VFR – if you have ANY instrument rating you can go down through the clouds. :)
Of course, if there is a freezing forecast for the cloud layer, then you’d have to plan carefully.

I think you need to understand much more about your mission profile. IFR does not equal always go. I’ll fly in all sorts of crap except TS and Moderate ice. Even with TKS. Between November and March, long distance in Europe, unless I have the luxury of good weather windows, which I invariably do not, particularly when planning months ahead, I pretty much have to fly commercial, hating every minute even though I’m mostly upfront on air miles. It’s not a silver bullet. I understand the desire to look ahead and plan for the future, but unless you are happy investing a lot of time and significant financial resource, then I’d get the licence and give it a year or two.

Interested about your missions, @Pig. Are your flights mostly for business meetings? Which fixed timing?

What are your usual destinations?

By the way, West Raynham isn‘t even shown as an active airfield in SD. And on the sat image, the „runway“ looks interesting as well…

Hi boscomantico

A complete mixture. Lots of business trips to Germany and Italy. EDTX EDSS and LIPV (my favourite airfield ever. I feel like Indiana Jones arriving in 1935 ) a few times a year mostly unless covid interuptus 2 – 3 POB Nearly always IFR

Climbing in the alps in summer means LFLP maybe four or five times a season. This is about the best profile. NA SR22, 4 POB, some luggage 3.5 to 4 hours, six hours door to door middle of nowhere Norfolk to chalet in Chamonix. 50 / 50 VFR / IFR

LFMD for Provence two or three times a year or a stop over for going further afield, usually 2 POB 50 /50 again

Skiing – only managed LFLB once but planned lots of trips that never made the weather. IFR….

Very hard to plan ahead and make plans stick is my problem. Business is often last minute and planning family stuff the usual nightmare of coordinating five of us. That needs special resource and looking forward months and months. Can’t think I’ve made a plan more than three months ahead that has worked out except in the climbing season in terms of GA

The runway at West Raynham is now under a load of solar panels but there is a lovely tarmac strip 23/05 700m just south of the hangers (the old taxiway) but I leave it as inactive as I don’t want to upset the locals with too much traffic and to avoid any bureaucratic issues. Lots of history to the place. About to start renovating the old watch tower.