Mooney_Driver wrote:
One thing which could be tried is to call his game and declare Ukraine neutral, like Sweden and Switzerland, with clear propositions how to enforce that.
Sweden is not neutral. We’re a NATO member in everything but name.
Graham wrote:
Did anyone doubt it would?
Initially, I did. I found it suspicious that those western leaders who needed better PR (in trouble or facing election) were playing it up while the Ukrainian leadership was a lot calmer, but I clearly was wrong. Just that a politician makes good use of a potential crisis does not mean that there is no crisis…
Not since he sent troops into the Donetsk Basin, though.
I blame hollywood. They ran out of ideas long ago and moved on to remakes of old favourites.
Strike Sudetenland and put in Donetsk, strike Ukraine and insert Bohemia and Moravia, it’s the same. Even the rhetoric (claims of discrimination/harassment/genocide of German Russian people in Checkoslovakia and Poland Ukraine) is the same.
I wonder if they kept the overall plot. If so, the next “scene” is an invasion of another neighbour on the pretext that they attacked first. Maybe they will even use that famous catchphrase “Seit 5:45 Uhr wird jetzt zurückgeschossen”
Airborne_Again wrote:
Sweden is not neutral. We’re a NATO member in everything but name.
Certainly not! I see that Swedish Gripens are participating in the huge military maneuver “Cold Response” starting next month in large parts of Norway. There will be lots of activity at ENVA, used as a transportation hub. 220 planes, 50 navy vessels including two carriers and tons and tons of ground forces. However, this is a maneuvers that anyone can participate in, also non NATO countries. Finland also participates with ground forces. Sweden and Finland usually do this (as well as participate in lots of other military stuff), but that does not mean they are part of NATO. Even the Swiss air force pops by from time to time. The NATO Response Force is one of the main participants.
Being part of NATO means committing by signing the treaty. The principle is that an attack on one country is an attack on all NATO countries. Neither Sweden nor Finland has committed themselves to attack Russia if Russia attacks Norway or Poland for instance, or any other NATO country. On the flip side, NATO is not likely to help Sweden or Finland if Russia attacks. There is no infrastructure or tactical procedures in place to deploy large NATO forces in Finland or Sweden.
I mean, Sweden participates in playing war games with NATO outside Swedish territory, but they are certainly not a NATO member.
Anyway the NATO Response Force (and then some) should be in Ukraine now. It’s a cry and shame what is going on right now. At some point someone has to kick Putin firmly in the teeth. It’s the only thing he understands. Ukraine is an opportunity now lost. The entire Ukraine sacrificed on the alter of the gods of fog-talk and spinelessness. We will se, it’s not impossible the Ukrainians will kick back.
So sad, so sad. I don’t see any further “benefit” of this war than improving the egos of some of the involved. There are very, very few reasons that might reason a war, but this is not among them.
And it is threatening. Ukraine is not much more than a two hours flight away. That is definitely too close for me.
LeSving wrote:
but they are certainly not a NATO member.
As I wrote, not in name. And of course without that there are no mutual safety guarantees. But Sweden has got pretty clear safety guarantees from the USA. NATO participates in training on Swedish territory — recently B52s were in exercises in Sweden. All of the Swedish military has adopted to NATO standards etc. We have even changed military rank insignia…
Sweden’s policy was for a very long time to be “non-aligned in peace, neutral in war.” The non-alignment part has now been officially scrapped.
Let me add that I prefer Sweden’s old policy.
The entire Ukraine sacrificed on the alter of the gods of fog-talk and spinelessness. We will se, it’s not impossible the Ukrainians will kick back.
Never a truer word was written.
The EU is now going to reap what it sowed. After years of mainlining Russian gas and hosing billions of Euros into the military-industrial complex of a murderous regime while starving Ukraine of arms, the EU will have not one but many “Aleppos” on their doorstep and an effective border with their Russian friends who recently attacked British residents and citizens with a nerve agent.
Ukranians will resist – and many will suffer terribly, for as long as it takes. They will suffer and die thanks to European energy policy inspired by a Swedish brat and countries like Finland, Norway, Germany and Poland which have tried for years to block even civilian arms supply to Ukraine while failing to fund NATO or European defence.
What is next? I just hope it is not Moldova..
Airborne_Again wrote:
As I wrote, not in name
- and not by allegiance. Sweden is still “neutral in war”. The whole idea of NATO is being 100% allied in war. One for all, all for one.
The EU is now going to reap what it sowed. After years of mainlining Russian gas and hosing billions of Euros into the military-industrial complex of a murderous regime while starving Ukraine of arms, the EU will have not one but many “Aleppos” on their doorstep and an effective border with their Russian friends who recently attacked British residents and citizens with a nerve agent.
Spot on.
I predict little will change, but may be wrong.
Ukraine is (or was) one of the world’s largest exporters of grain. Now people in poor countries will starve.
Will Germans keep warm by burning their furniture, and will the EU now subsidise Polish coal-fired power stations instead of imposing fines on them?
Will our current crop of invertebrate western leaders give long-term support to an insurgency in Ukraine?
Interesting times, though very sad for our Ukrainian customers and friends who we may never see again.
