CharlieRomeo wrote:
After all, you have to expect the “checker” to be able to save the day and plane-
Why should (s)he? Of course person being checked out must have a valid SEP and currency to take pax. In other words, the guy can fly. The purpose of the checkout is both to see that (s)he flies sufficiently well that we can trust him/her with not damaging our aircraft and also to provide important information on local procedures.
@Airborne_Again Yes, club checkouts are explicitly mentioned as examples.
It’s interesting that other countries do club checkouts with non-instructors, that’s something I would have never thought of. After all, you have to expect the “checker” to be able to save the day and plane- you possibly do not know anything about the ability of the other guy.
The same goes for logging PIC during tests- that’s not done here, and the authority has made clear that this is not permissible over here. Their stance is basically that the examiner is in charge, so he is PIC, because the “trainee” isn’t the one to make the final decisions.
Airborne_Again wrote:
In our club, a checkout is typically not done by an instructor. It is a checkout – not instructing.
As far as the authority is concerned, a checkout is just like any other normal flight in which one is PIC. The “checker” is just an observer, from a legal point of view a “passenger”.
But some clubs (in Spain for example) are a bit annoying about this and insist that the instructor logs PIC and the pilot being checked out logs dual.
I have come across Spanish EXAMINERS who insisted that even a successful skills test must be logged as DUAL by the candidate, which is ridiculous.
So much confusion reigns about logging time in general that it is amazing.
WingsWaterAndWheels wrote:
although most would expect it to be a flight with an instructor of the club
In our club, a checkout is typically not done by an instructor. It is a checkout – not instructing. The only “instructing” we do during the checkout is pointing out landmarks for the traffic circuit, noise-sensitive areas etc.
One can do “club checkouts” without holding an instructor rating, you log PIC, the new joiner logs nothing, he can fly on his own later if he still remembers where to get fuel or how to park it !
Airborne_Again wrote:
Is a club checkout really training?
It depends on how the club is defining the said ‘club checkout’. I’m writing this because I’ve never seen a definition of club checkout at any higher level (but maybe that exists in some places). If the club does not give a definition of a club checkout, they leave this open for interpretation and one could even considering that discussing the procedures with another club member as a club checkout, although most would expect it to be a flight with an instructor of the club…
CharlieRomeo wrote:
In the view of the LBA this also extends to non-FCL-mandated instruction such as voluntary training or club checkouts.
Is a club checkout really training?
Yes, but in conjunction with the rule on logging dual time there are not too many possibilities where the Instructor/Examiner would not be PIC. One I could think of is when the instructor gets checked themselves and the examiner is sitting in the back, being unable to control the aircraft from there.
The standard constellation of a licensed pilot receiving refresher training/ differences trading/ club checkout/ etc. the LBA has been very clear, at least in my view.
That is true, but this only says that an instructor or examiner isn’t automatically PIC just because they are present in the aircraft
No, it says „eingesetzt“, which is very different from just being „present“.
That is true, but this only says that an instructor or examiner isn’t automatically PIC just because they are present in the aircraft. The complementary statement is the following one regarding the logging of dual time:
Flugzeit mit Lehrberechtigtem oder Prüfer (dual)
Flugzeiten im Flugbuch werden als ‚dual‘ ausgewiesen, wenn es sich um
1. einen Ausbildungsflug mit Lehrberechtigtem zum Erwerb einer Lizenz oder
Berechtigung
2. eine Auffrischungsschulung, einen Schulungsflug, eine Unterschiedsschulung, einen
Vorab-Testflug oder eine Kompetenzbeurteilung mit Lehrberechtigtem gem. Teil-FCL
3. einen Prüfungsflug mit Prüfer zum Erwerb, zur Verlängerung oder Erneuerung einer
Lizenz oder Berechtigung (praktische Prüfung, Befähigungsüberprüfung oder
Kompetenzbeurteilung)
handelt.
Darüber hinaus handelt es sich um „Dual-Zeit“, wenn mit einer Person in ihrer Funktion als
Lehrberechtigter oder Prüfer ein sonstiger (Übungs-)Flug (z.B. interner Vereins-Checkflug,
Standardisierungsflug, Vertrautmachen, „Checkflug“ auf Halteranordnung etc.)
vorgenommen wird. Hierbei ist der Lehrberechtigte oder der Prüfer PIC.
Flight time with an instructor or examiner
Flight time has to be entered as “dual” into the pilot’s logbook if the flight is
1. a training flight with an instructor for the issue, revalidation or renewal of a license or rating
2. Refresher training, an instructional flight, a differences training, a pre-entry assessment or an assessment of competence with an instructor according part FCL
3. A check flight with an examiner for the issue, revalidation or renewal for a license or rating (skill test, assessment of competence, etc.)
Additionally, dual time is also to be logged if an instructor or examiner is acting in their role during any other training flight (including internal club checkouts, standardisation flights, familiarisation flights, “checks” upon operator’s request). The instructor is PIC during these flights.
