To avoid further going around in circles, I have emailed the airport for their take on it, and will advise if/what I hear.
If you think you want to go earlier, let the airport know in case they have to inform immigration.
I did that.
I’ve been flying around Europe for enough years to know how it generally works… 2300hrs. What happened here is not normal.
Peter wrote:
If you think you want to go earlier, let the airport know in case they have to inform immigration.
I did that.
If you mean when you asked when you could start over the VHF then that is too late. When you paid your bill, did you tell them to contact police as you were departing earlier? Maybe I missed this in the earlier posts.
I would only question the police being at the hold. Did you say you first became aware of the police at the hold?
If so I would find this of great concern. Once the aircraft engine(s) are running the area around the aircraft should be a sterile enviroment without any distraction and with air traffic the only authroity to require the pilot to return to the ramp or turn off the engines, clearly with good reason because the distraction could so easily cause an accident. I would question anyone approaching an aircraft with engines running under the control of air traffic on the active part of an airport. I find it hard to believe without the authority of AT they had any right to be there, and if they had AT authority then why did AT not tell you to return to the ramp or shut down the engine(s) where you were and report aircraft secure for the police to approach? If you refused to do so then of course that would be another matter.
If you mean when you asked when you could start over the VHF then that is too late. When you paid your bill, did you tell them to contact police as you were departing earlier? Maybe I missed this in the earlier posts.
It was, to me, obvious from the context. The official at the handler desk checked my passport and license, knew I was flying to the UK, knew the filed EOBT, and soon afterwards escorted me out to the plane. There was no sign of the police and, as I said, at most French airports they don’t bother turning up most of the time (unless they are permanently present). And I started up a relatively short time before the filed EOBT – after the police had (or should have had) about 1.5hrs’ notice that I was there presenting myself for the check, and 4 days’ notice of the date/time.
At most airports the handler takes care of presenting you to the police. But maybe at Avignon this doesn’t happen and the police always “hide” in their office and come out at the filed EOBT, or a few mins before, only. I reckon this must be the answer since (to refer to a suggestion above that it is the pilot’s responsibility to find them) it would be pretty weird to get oneself ready to go to the plane and then have to roam by yourself around the airport (where barely anyone – or literally nobody; I could name quite a few in France and Spain like that – speaks English) looking for the police.
So it does look like at Avignon they come out to the plane. That is what they did after I landed.
So the Q, which I keep repeating, is why they do it at the last minute. It sounds like something went wrong in the coordination with the airport, or the police deliberately don’t co-operate with the airport and just run their own empire (that would be a very typical thing) with a list of departures (flight plans) on a computer and they “visit” each one at EOBT minus 5 mins, and kick up a massive stink if they find the plane gone 
Of course they are entitled to do this (because they are the police and de facto “own” the airport) even if it is both stupid and contrary to normal aviation practice.
If/when I hear back from the airport I will post more info.
Did you say you first became aware of the police at the hold?
Yes; ATC told me there are “two men” walking to the plane. They were about 20m away at that point. For sure that was weird because as I said above the normal way would have been for the police to phone ATC and request I taxi back.
It was obvious the two men were not in contact with ATC (if they were, why walk up to the wingtip and gesticulate like crazy) so had I taxied forwards, even under ATC direction, they would have opened fire.
Peter wrote:
So the Q, which I keep repeating, is why they do it at the last minute
Maybe they were having breakfast at the coffee (because they didn’t have earlier flights to check), and didn’t want to have to wait for the pilot at the airport.
If I understand correctly, they appeared roughly at the time you had “contracted” with them. I wouldn’t expect them to have an obligation to show earlier.
As to your certainty they would have opened fire, this is (sorry) not the US (One of the good things of not having people carrying war protection weapons on their person is that the police can assume that they are not going to be shot at).
Them firing on you would might have gotten them suspended / jailed (they normally have to drop car chases if they thing it’s dangerous for the “chasee”). I seriously doubt if that even if you had started to take off they would have opened fire. Decision didn’t need to be made into a split second, and they could well wait for the time a heli / plane to intercept and think a bit more.
I agree in this case if they are not in communication, I’d follow the uniform, but perhaps something along the lines of acknowledging them and making a “turn around sign” and pointing at the apron would have calmed them down and you could have told the ATC you were taxiing back)
E in EOBT = Estimated. Not Earliest….
I am late to this topic and most of the arguments have been posted already – but thought I would chime in as someone who is a regular at Avignon.
The usual form to advise of international departures is here: http://www.avignon.aeroport.fr/preavis-depart-douane
There is a similar one for arrivals.
I have always found the forms to be respected as a sufficient notification and their details are usually checked against travel documents. If there are no errors, the officials are usually very pleased and wave you on your way with a smile.
The police do normally show up these days.
Once when I tried to depart for London earlier, within 24 hours of my revised planned departure, they said they could not accommodate this. I went instead via Deauville which required no such notice.
On arrival you must go first to the airside immigration kiosks on the outside of the east facing wall of the terminal. If there is no-one there, enter via the GA door at the northern end of the terminal and say hello at the administration desk at the southern end. They will know if customs plan to attend.
You should always seek out the douanniers if they are there. On departure, you will usually know because their cars are highly visible in the parking lot near the terminal. Their office is to your half right as you enter the terminal. If they are not there and not coming, the ops people will tell you.
Avignon is a great airport. Parking and landing are cheap, airside assistance is available (eg GPUs and firefighters to help if you have something inconvenient to deal with such as a flat tyre) and parking of cars on is free.
We are lucky that they do not charge for immigration formalities outside the summer season. They have no commercial flights during the winter months and could easily decide just not to bother to accommodate us.
I sympathise with Peter – it is always a a pain when the unexpected intervenes at a time when one really has to concentrate on being safe and thorough. This was, however, in my humble view, just an unfortunate misunderstanding.
D
Peter wrote:
Yes; ATC told me there are “two men” walking to the plane. They were about 20m away at that point.
And that was at the holding point. I would suggest that this might have been illegal on their part to be there. At least where I work, to be that close to the runway is totally forbidden and nobody interferes with a taxiing airplane either. From the point of view of ramp security, this is unacceptable.
As you said, if customs wanted to stop your flight, they should have asked the tower to return you to the tarmac.
Peter wrote:
It was obvious the two men were not in contact with ATC (if they were, why walk up to the wingtip and gesticulate like crazy) so had I taxied forwards, even under ATC direction, they would have opened fire.
If they were not in contact with ATC, then so much the more they had nothing to do there.
On the other hand: Open fire? Did they have their guns out or point them at you?
If this had happened at a Swiss airport with security zone as Avignon is, I would file a report with the CAA. In France, I would not know if that would do anything else then put you on a watchlist… which is the least thing you want in that place.
Personally I would make a complaint, because there are important safety considerations here, if they were only 20 metres away when ATC notified you. Anyone wandering around in the sterile area of an airport once in the manoevering areas is a very bad idea, in whatever capacity.
BTW were they wearing yellow jackets
I have been “met” by the police only twice, once in France and once in the UK. On both occasions I was asked if I would agree to speak to them on the apron, and on both occasions I was not in the aircraft. I was happy to do so. In France, it was because I had diverted due to weather. They were polite and cordial, we chatted for a while, they asked to see my licence and FP and that was that. In the UK it was a simple check to establish that a GAR had been filed – all very friendly.
I would be horrified to be intercepted at the hold, and would have made a real fuss about it.
On arrival you must go first to the airside immigration kiosks on the outside of the east facing wall of the terminal.
If that is true, then it’s highly unusual, not in accordance with normal practice and must be notificed somewhere. It’s not notified in the AIP.
Normal practice is that you arrive in via the arrivals door and walk past the customs desk. There they have the opportunity to check your details if they with.
If you have a handling agent, they may have a faster process where they present you to customs.
In smaller airports, where there is no arrivals door, and no landside/airside boundary, you simply arrive and customs will come find you.
I’ve never come across a situation where you had to actively go seek out customs to see if they were at the airport or not.
If customs think that it’s correct to come check you at EOBT, then I’m left confused about how you could achieve an ontime departure which surely you are entitled to do.
It seems to me that Peter shouldn’t have taxied before EOBT, Customs shouldn’t have turned up less than EOBT – say 15 mins (to allow time for the checks, and start up and an ontime departure), customs shouldn’t have entered the taxiways and approached an aircraft with engines running, and the handling agent & ATC shouldn’t have allowed Peter to go on his way until they have checked with customs if they wished to attend.
Lessons for everyone.
