Are aeroclubs holding back GA?

Peter wrote:

spread the fixed costs over more people (so non flying members are “great to have”)

That is very short sighted. Of course, if people just give you money for nothing, that is fine, but a club with relatively new aircraft has everything to gain by people flying as much as possible. Non flying members represent an untapped potential in this respect. Ideally a (relatively new) plane should fly 24/7. Every hour on the ground is a “loss”. That’s how new planes should be treated, and that’s how most clubs treat them. Older planes, planes already depreciated, should ideally fly somewhere between 20-200 hours per yer. Anything less – get rid of it, anything more – get a newer plane. It’s more expensive for a club to run an old plane 500h per year than a new plane 500h per year. The old plane represent a loss, and should be flown less, the new plane represent an income, and should be flown more (the actual numbers just to visualize the point here). A well run club knows this, and will have planes for everyone. Just don’t expect C-172 price on a brand new Cirrus. It will never add up.

Peter wrote:

so it has cost you c. 80k and not 150k.

Perhaps, but in the mean time the club has got newer planes. After 10 years you would be flying a newer family of Aquilas and Cirruses with the newest gadgets. What would you get instead of the TB20? (I can think of a very nice Yak or even two, but that’s beside the question )

LeSving wrote:

After 10 years you would be flying a newer family of Aquilas and Cirruses with the newest gadgets.

That’s true. During my two years of membership alone,the club replaced its 2010 Aquila A210 with a 2016 Aquila 211. Still Peter’s above post holds several valid arguments.

LeSving wrote:

Every hour on the ground is a “loss”. That’s how new planes should be treated, and that’s how most clubs treat them.

True. The above mentioned Aquila A211 was used for about 450 hrs in its first year alone.

Peter wrote:

A club is really closer to a (large) syndicate?

Was thinking the same the other day when the club vs rental point was brought up…

Peter wrote:

Not quite. Let’s say you take 10 years to run up the above hours. If you buy a 2002 TB20 for 150k, after 10 years it will sell for say 120k, so it’s actually cost you 30k, plus non flying related maintenance over the 10 years which is say another 50k (a pretty generous figure for a VFR aircraft), so it has cost you c. 80k and not 150k.

LeSving wrote:

Keep it in good condition, and as time goes by, you are likely to get more for it than what you payed.

This is a good way to own.
New planes all have kinks to work out, and I’ve heard that the same model which is 10 years old already has all the (or most of the) AD’s complied with, so the tough MX is already paid for.

Apparently, there’s an inflection point at about 8-10 years, where the depreciation and AD’s have reached their maxima. From there until around 25-30 years, the aircraft holds its value, or appreciates in value.

So, for first time buyers who don’t have a load of money, buying a nice, 10 year old plane makes far more sense than a brand-new plane.

I’d say the clubs are losing a lot of money through depreciation and AD’s by buying new.
Of course, if everyone thought like I did, the manufacturers might go out of business… :(

In the long run, I think experimentals are really the maximum value. If I have my way, my next one will be an N-Reg ‘home-built’ that is really a kit-build, for cheap. No AD’s, no ridiculous expenses, but there’s the hangup of Manufacturer liability, which means the resell value is atrocious.

The only way I can see to manage that is to have a shell company ‘build’ the plane, and then after it has been used and then sold, the shell company ‘goes bankrupt’…. so there’s no line of liability.
That’s a big issue in the US right now. Guys are actually crushing perfectly good planes because of the liability aspect. :(

Bit of a thread drift, but I think the lack of room for manufacturers to be innovative (no monetary incentive at this point) is a far larger barrier than Aviation Clubs…

The famous philosopher: “You are right but I don’t agree with you” strikes again.

Well my problem is very simple. I don’t have an unlimited amount of time, and I don’t see the recreation in stressing about “when is the next part going to break, and how long is it taking for some random guy to show up to fix it”.

You keep mixing up “equipment designed for commercial use” with “equipment made to work” which is not exactly the same thing.

I am willing to bet that regardless of your self-professed hate for “equipment made for commercial use” you have plenty of COTS equipment in your RV and in your plane – for the simple reason that it is cheap and it works as advertised.

Now if “whatever makes you tick” is playing with Legos instead of flying, don’t call it “recreational flying” but “recreational backyard building”…

I don’t think expecting a vehicle that costs between 0.5 and 1m dollars to perform as advertised is “silver – platter”. However I do think that calling a reasonable expectation “silver – platter” is silver-plated stupidity.

As a matter of fact I sold my Mooney. I was afraid that trying to use it for what it was designed for i.e from point A to point B would be considered as “silver-plated entitlement”.

Having said that I’d like to explore funding a diesel conversion once it comes out.

As a matter of fact I sold my Mooney. I was afraid that trying to use it for what it was designed for i.e from point A to point B would be considered as “silver-plated entitlement”.

Could you elaborate (in a new thread) what the various problems were?

Ahh please don’t get France confused with the UK. Flying, sailing, golf and tennis are not “rich man’s” sports here. They are open to everyone and people without much money can usually find a way to take part.They are often supported by the local community and in return support the local community where possible. The BIA is one prime example.

Actually this Poitiers mayor debate made me understand one thing.
For years, I thought french aeroclubs made purposely hard for pilots to travel etc (the discussion we had a zillion times here).
Now I think they just do what they are intended to do ! I mean no more, no less.

This story opened my eyes to what aeroclubs were made for : allowing people, especially the youth, to learn how to fly and then fly a little, for the less money possible. That’s what they are designed for, that’s what they do. They are not a renting company. If you want to expand your wings, you must look elsewhere.

The next problem is, elsewhere is scarce, and it costs $$$ more than club flying. Syndicates are rare here, owners don’t seem to fly a lot, maybe it is related to the income spread curve, I don’t know.
The only affordable (I mean not-so-different-than-a-car) plane here seem the amateur-built jodels, and I am about 10cm too tall to own one.

@Jujupilote I agree with you as to what an aeroclub in France is about. But as for touring in club aircraft for longer obviously that depends on the club. I am a member of 3 clubs. One is an owners club, mostly ULMs, but there’s also a Jodel which the owners are quite happy to let me borrow for a week away if I want and a Mooney M20K which the owner is also happy if I wanted to rent it.
The 2nd club only has one aircraft but with a bit of forward planning members often take it axay on longer trips to places like Senegal, Spain, Berlin, UK just to mention a few pre covid trips
This club also has good relations with several other clubs in the region and when extra aircraft are needed its not really a problem to get a DR400/180 or a DA40.
The third club I belong to is attached to an ATO and the members have 2x da42 5x DA40 a Tecnam, a TBM 700 and more recently a Phenom (can’t remember designation its a twin jet). As long as you have the qualifications, you book the plane and go. The only major criteria is if you take the plane away they would expect a certain number of hours per day (I think its 2).
But the directors of the ATO are very flexible and often waive this requirement, as long as people don’t take the p1ss.