few left wing dominated urban areas
Such thing doesn’t exist in USA.
Graham wrote:
Closing their doors to outsiders killed their tourism industries, but not much else.
Exactly. Australia had 2000 deaths of Covid while they imposed a zero covid policy with a population of 25 million. So they did not kill anywhere close to the amount of people as others did.
Worse than that is that vaccination quotas are going down massively world wide, which means more and more people will get severe cases or die, because fake news merchants all over the internet do all they can to keep people from getting vaccinated. And those people actually believe this FUD and risk their lives.
Graham wrote:
You may view the fact that a democratic government cannot override the will of the people and do the ‘right’ thing as a weakness, but I view it as a strength of the system. It stops those who are so sure they are right (certainty usually being inversely proportional to wisdom) from imposing their will on others.
Well, what that guarantees is that biological warfare will be a sure method to kill off large parts of the population of countries where people put themselves before the common good. I am sure that possible perpetrators of such actions have taken very clear note of this.
Democracy does not mean anarchy. Democracy means the people have a say in the legislative process and can elect their governments. It does not mean that they can overturn majority decisions or behave like two year old toddlers when told what to do by a majority. No, I do not advocate systems like China, least of all as they are responsible for this mess, but I would feel much safer in systems which take deadly diseases serious enough to impose meaningful countermeasures rather than let the mob have their way. Covid has shown that common effort to counter a danger is a concept which has been lost to the Western society, overturned by egoism and conspiracy nuts. If anyone really thinks it is possible that a society like this does meaningful changes against climate change or will stand together against enemies, think again. It is only a question of time until the same mechanisms will topple also the “front” if there ever was one against Russia too, once it gets too hard for them. Maybe these folks will have to learn the hard way one day if China or Russia exploit the weaknesses of the western societies and conquer them by overturning governments using fake news and threats, replacing them with people who will do their bidding or tolerate their antiks.
Australia did not kill anyone, and nor did any European countries. Covid did, albeit with a very low (<1%) infection fatality rate, mostly people around or already in excess of median life expectancy, usually with multiple comorbidities and in a near-end-of-life scenario where any reasonably aggressive respiratory infection might be expected to be fatal. Once again, infectious disease is a fact of life.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Well, what that guarantees is that biological warfare will be a sure method to kill off large parts of the population of countries where people put themselves before the common good. I am sure that possible perpetrators of such actions have taken very clear note of this.
It were ever thus. Nothing has changed. We are all incredibly vulnerable to biological warfare if some perpetrator is able to spread something highly infectious, with a significant infection fatality rate and difficult to treat. There is every chance this was a ‘send the mild version out, see how the world reacts’ operation from China.
I don’t think you understand democracy properly, how its checks and balances work, particularly if you’re under the impression that your views – espousing severe restrictions in pursuit of zero-covid – are in the majority. Democratic governments change course when they arouse sufficient disquiet in the population, lest they find themselves out of a job at the next election. What you refer to as ‘the mob’ is the people saying that unless they see a change of direction they’ll vote for someone else next time. Noisy minorities (‘mobs’) are usually some sort of barometer in a democracy – it is easy to dismiss them as people who should be ignored but history tells us that although only a minority may feel strongly enough to protest, that protest is often indicative of a more widespread preference. A politician ignores that at their peril. Take Brexit as an example – only a noisy minority (and not even a big minority) felt strongly enough about leaving the EU to keep campaigning and banging on about it. But put the issue to a referendum, and 52% of votes in favour!
So the checks and balances don’t manifest themselves by some ‘anti-lockdown covid-denier party’ getting elected, they manifest through existing governments changing their ways to maintain the support of the populations they serve. Whatever you may think, in most democratic countries the majority are not in favour of ongoing heavy-handed authoritarian restrictions on personal behaviour as an attempted ‘solution’ to an endemic respiratory illness with a low fatality rate.
Graham wrote:
Nothing has changed.
Well, what has changed is that all bio war defense plans can be shredded and turned into toilet paper. After all, that was what the demand was for. If I was in charge of civil protection for these scenarios, I’d resign right now, as it is pointless trying to protect a mob.
Graham wrote:
I don’t think you understand democracy properly,
Well, in this here country the POPULATION had the vote TWICE to keep or abolish measures and covid passes e.t.c. In both cases, the votes were clearly for upholding the laws put in place. THAT is democracy, not some swing in the wind politicians. Add to that, in times of crisis you need leaders who lead by example and motivation, not by force and repression. Where such people were in place, again NZ comes to mind but initially also Bulgaria, people went along. Unfortunately in some cases the screaming minority managed to unset them with horrible results.
Graham wrote:
There is every chance this was a ‘send the mild version out, see how the world reacts’ operation from China.
If that is what it was, then this was an attack with weapons of mass destruction. I think it is clear what the answer would have to be, so probably nobody wants to prove it. Until the next time.
Graham wrote:
Take Brexit as an example – only a noisy minority (and not even a big minority) felt strongly enough about leaving the EU to keep campaigning and banging on about it. But put the issue to a referendum, and 52% of votes in favour!
Well, it was a harsh lesson in democracy for you Brits. If you don’t want the answer, don’t ask the question. If you don’t take that loud minority seriously, they will rule you. As it happened here.
Same thing with Covid. The anti vaxxers, Bill Gates conspirators and so on were a tiny but loud and Twitter-happy bunch of lunatics who managed to turn the whole efforts of the medical profession to naught. Now they are the majority. And as it has become more than obvious in even moderate places such as here, they have won the war of opinion by a darn sight more than 52%.
Let’s leave it Graham. We will never agree on this. For me, the thing is now fact of life, I protect myself and my family as good as I can and in any case, in some years it won’t be my problem anymore. Old farts like myself are on the way out, the sooner the better I reckon. Sometimes I wonder if some of my friends who died in this are not better off than those who remain, if it were not for the horrible way they went out. But that is where we are headed, a society where the living envy the dead as they can see where all this is going.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Let’s leave it Graham.
Agreed, we are not going to agree and better to talk about aeroplanes :-)
Graham wrote:
There is every chance this was a ‘send the mild version out, see how the world reacts’ operation from China.
Given that it spread in China, too, and that they didn’t have any vaccines prepared and that the ones they have now aren’t very good, I find that highly unlikely.
Airborne_Again wrote:
Given that it spread in China, too, and that they didn’t have any vaccines prepared and that the ones they have now aren’t very good, I find that highly unlikely.
Who knows?
I don’t follow your logic chain though. You are implying that the Chinese regime is bothered about preserving the lives of individuals within their very large population? I find that highly unlikely.
Apparently @Emir has yet to see how screwed up San Francisco and New York City are. Good places to avoid in any case, or leave. Happily we have plenty of diversity and opportunity in the US, and no bureaucracy locking us in one place. Trends indicate that people are moving to better run areas of the US, voting with their feet.
It’s useful overall to have a domestic example of how not to do things 
Well put as always Graham.
Graham wrote:
You are implying that the Chinese regime is bothered about preserving the lives of individuals within their very large population? I find that highly unlikely.
Indeed, but they are very concerned about the stability of the country and of constant economic growth to keep people happy. That hasn’t worked very well the last few years, has it?
@Airborne_Again correct, the PRC has been described as a bicycle, preferably a Flying Pigeon from Deng Xiao Peng era, if GDP doesn’t grow by 7% p.a. it will topple over!
