Airborne_Again wrote:
the question is what is a “better” system?
Fully agree. That is a little bit the catch 22 for the US: Over decades they have justified their (self declared) superiority by economic success. Now that others are obviously much more successful, they start to row backwards “Well, uhh, it’s not all about economy..”
Airborne_Again wrote:
In all other respects, I find the Chinese system abhorrent.
So do I – but I have to accept the fact that a vast majority of the Chinese (and therefore more than 1 bn of people) have a different opinion.
Airborne_Again wrote:But those people are not US citizens, of course, so maybe they don’t count?
There is a reason why they call the US the “land of the free” and not the “land of freedom”. All the benefits of the US system do only apply to a comparatively small group of people (“the free”) who are mainly white, christian and economically independent – and of course have an US citizenship. If you do not belong to this exquisite group of “the free”, you can only fall into one of the two other categories: Those who are useful for “the free” and those who are not.
As any trader will tell you, even a monkey can make money in a bull market, and that’s what’s happening in China. Their business scene is dominated by gangsters and crooks. I am about to pay out $3k on a moulding tool. The 4th identical one. The first two two were “stolen” by “criminals”. The 3rd one is currently being used to extort $1k out of my business (I wanted it moved to a somewhat more reputable chinese moulder; the present moulder has no name or address – we dealt with a front man, which is what 90% of chinese “businesses” are). I will probably tell them to stick this tool where it is warm and dark, because they could take the $1k and then do the standard chinese “goodbye” (visit the tool with a hammer). That tool is a good one too, and it will be lost after just 10k mouldings…
Of course they love the growth. Even a monkey can make money in a bull market.
Re US involvement in various places in the 1950s and 60s, the French had a go earlier in Vietnam and didn’t get very far. “Everybody” had a go in Afghanistan and got nowhere too. Lots of reasons for that… For an alternative view of 20th century countering of communist expansion, ask someone who actually lived in communism – like my family (CZ). Unfortunately Czechoslovakia was buggered at Yalta…
Malibuflyer wrote:
There is a reason why they call the US the “land of the free” and not the “land of freedom”. All the benefits of the US system do only apply to a comparatively small group of people (“the free”) who are mainly white, christian and economically independent – and of course have an US citizenship. If you do not belong to this exquisite group of “the free”, you can only fall into one of the two other categories: Those who are useful for “the free” and those who are not.
I actually have some sympathy with @Silvaire’s view on government. The problem is that it completely lacks any sense of solidarity or compassion. It is all too randian for my taste. (Indeed, I find randianism as abhorrent as the Chinese system, but for different reasons.)
Airborne_Again wrote:
It is all too randian for my taste
For those who do not have the time to go to Google…
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
— Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged4
As a Airborne_Again wrote:
I find randianism as abhorrent as the Chinese system, but for different reasons.)
As a thesis debate…..Could you elaborate and explain why?
BeechBaby wrote:
For those who do not have the time to go to Google…
..could have followed my link which led straight to the relevant Wikipedia page.
My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.
Those are just nice-sounding words.
As a thesis debate…..Could you elaborate and explain why?
Two main reasons. One is that it is really a philosophy of egoism. The other is that it makes ludicrous claims of being “rational” and “objective”. I once debated with a follower of Rand’s philosophy who – in complete seriousness – claimed that from randian axioms of the kind “A is A”, “Existence exists” etc. you can – by logical deduction – conclude that capitalism is the superior economic system.!
Am I too late for the cash for building work discussion?
I slightly know a couple of builders in the UK who both seem to have considerable disposable income. For almost all larger work I’ve had quoted the tradesmen have said “I’m guessing you don’t want to pay an extra 20% VAT so it’ll be cash”.
In France we have had work done for cash. However, it was either in the family (my cousin), or by a recently retired neighbour who absolutely refused to be paid (we eventually forced him to a restaurant so he did get something). Other work was paid normally, in the family (aunt’s brother), or by a builder from the next hamlet 1km away.
In the UK, social security is guaranteed almost regardless of income. In France, the more you contribute the more you receive, so there’s less incentive to bypass the system. I was going to have some work done by an unemployed person, but he would only accept cheque travail which was too much hassle (you have to apply at the mairie and claim them back on your tax return).
French masons tend to do the work for its own sake, rather than the financial incentive: there isn’t the same motivation to ‘get rich’. This isn’t necessarily a reflection on the quality of the work 
Trying to reduce the price by paying cash will probably offend.
The only ‘black market’ I can think of in France is buying wood. If you look on google or in the phone book the nearest company selling firewood is in the big town 70km away. In reality a friend of a friend delivers a few stères (metres cubed) with their tractor trailer then chainsaws it into 50, 33 or 25cm logs at your door. At ~€50 a stère it’s a nice sideline if you have the land and equipment, but labour intensive and you’ll never get rich.
As an aside, a neighbour in FL had an air conditioner replaced on the quiet. One of the companies who quoted but didn’t get the job must have denounced them to the city, because they were fined a small amount for having the work done without a permit, had to apply (and pay) for a permit, book an inspection, and pay to have the installation ‘corrected’ by an approved AC contractor. Cash is much more widespread – I remember some friends would keep a month’s pay in their billfold – but there is also bureaucracy.
BeechBaby wrote:
Could you elaborate and explain why?
Any type of believers believe that they are the “rationals” in an irrational world. Would be fun to talk to “irrationalists”.
But beyond that: The idea of Rand is a good one – we now just need the mankind to make it happen.
The whole idea of becoming a “heroic being” by following ones egoisms is not in line with the mankind we currently have at hand. With this one, the individual strip for egoistic happiness would much rather lead to behaviors we’d call villain instead of heroic.
Capitaine wrote:
In France, the more you contribute the more you receive, so there’s less incentive to bypass the system. I was going to have some work done by an unemployed person, but he would only accept cheque travail which was too much hassle (you have to apply at the mairie and claim them back on your tax return).
For individual-to-inividual services “jobs at home”, there is really no incentive to “go black” (filing tax declaration is not lot of hassle ), it’s rather the opposite better declare it and get 50% tax advantage, two people get into a deal: I pay you with “cheques impots” (where I contribute 1/2 and rest comes from my taxes) and you receive a descent salary? this applies to “jobs at home”: care giving, house cleaning, baby sitting, gardening, private teacher at home, home improvements, plumbing…
Airborne_Again wrote:
I actually have some sympathy with @Silvaire’s view on government. The problem is that it completely lacks any sense of solidarity or compassion.
That’s simply because solidarity and compassion (or any high level societal function) is the last thing I’d want to delegate to government. I think most Americans view this similarly, and that it might be worthwhile along those lines for you to take a look at these numbers.
When it comes to societal solidarity and compassion, Northern Europeans often talk a good line, but the talk is generally accompanied by pointing fingers at (criticism of) somebody else. As one of my Italian friends would say they very often “have snakes in their pockets” when it comes to personal generosity and direct accountability.
Re the ‘Black Money’ discussion, the whole concept (I’d never heard of it until marrying a German) is a creation of VAT taxation, which is the dumbest and most demotivating form of government ever, in my view. I hire anybody I want to do anything, and pay them in whatever form I want. Paying income taxes is their responsibility, at the end of the year or quarterly, and it’s completely negative that it would have anything to do with me as the customer. Encouraging people to work and take initiative is a good thing, period, and to me it’s completely depressing that a government system would be so self centered and greedy as to directly discourage productivity in favor increasing funding for government.
Silvaire wrote:
That’s simply because solidarity and compassion (or any high level societal function) is the last thing I’d want to delegate to government. I think most Americans view this similarly, and that it might be worthwhile along those lines for you to take a look at these numbers.
I may not have made myself clear. “It” referred to your view, not to governments.
Re the ‘Black Money’ discussion, the whole concept (I’d never heard of it until marrying a German) is a creation of VAT taxation, which is the dumbest and most demotivating form of government ever, in my view. I hire anybody I want t do anything, and pay them in whatever form I want. Paying income taxes is their responsibility, at the end of the year or quarterly, nothing to do with me as a customer.
Paying VAT is not the responsibility of the customer – it is the responsibility of the seller. There is no legal prohibition against paying in cash and VAT is levied also on cash transactions. However, when paying in cash, without receipts, there is no trail, paper or electronic, that shows that the transaction ever took place, so the payment of VAT can’t be enforced.
Encouraging people to work and take initiative is a good thing, period, and to me it’s completely depressing that a government system would be so self centered and greedy as to directly discourage productivity in favor increasing funding for government.
“Black money” isn’t just related to VAT but to taxation in general. The seller can also avoid paying income tax in the same way.
