Airborne_Again wrote:
Funny. I feel the same about the US. It’s a great place for a vacation, but I wouldn’t want to live there, ever.
My feelings as well, for most of it. But, the North West and Canada in particular (Alberta region) feels exactly like home 
only even more space.
I think the internet makes all of us very black/white in our thinking. There is no place like home, especially when you are away. This is an English speaking board with 80-90% Brits, so the Brits don’t care. Why would they? Criticizing/discussing Norwegian politics, we do in Norwegian, and I guess that’s the same for all non English speakers here as well (in native tongue I mean ) However, this do give us non native English speakers an advantage. We have a vastly broader perspective on things, and it’s quite funny at times reading the narrow mindedness (no offense, really).
The very essence of the “Scandinavian or Nordic model” if you want, is to create equal opportunities for all citizens. How do you do that? Well, you treat everybody as if they were family. Why do that? The main reason is to make each individual independent of parents, family and names. That is all there is to it. Now, in politics there are people from all over the spectrum, from fascists to communists and everything in between, but try to mess with principles of the welfare state, and you are politically dead in an instant. For good or bad, that’s how it is, and it has been like that for the last 100 years (although it also used to be somewhat like this 1000 years ago). That’s what foreigner just don’t get (ignorant Americans mostly, and some Russians for some odd reason, they are even worse). They see a “strong” state and think WTF? We see a society that takes care of the basics, so that each of us can be free to seek the life we want, the careers we want. And it works. It’s not entirely without reason that the Nordic countries are ranked as they are in every ranking you can find about happiness, equal opportunities etc.
I used to work in the oil industry. Lots of trips to the States and Canada (and Scotland, but that’s beside the point), and lots of American here in Norway. It was always funny the way some random dudes from Texas would come working here, almost scared to death initially by fairy tales about this “communist state” Then he couldn’t make heads or tails of it because the children were so happy, everyone were so free and friendly They all felt at home rather fast, except of course the cold, the darkness and the price of a beer, and they always complained about small hotel rooms
Nothing works perfectly, and neither do the Nordic welfare system. However, discussing this on a board like this? I mean, it’s 100% useless. So it’s more a matter of discussing stuff that the English speaking crowd can relate to, rather than being offensive about “national quirks”. The sad and simple fact is that discussing politics with English speaking people can only be done through the narrow perspective that the native English (only) speaker has. Again, no offense, it’s just the way it is. A few have traveled around a bit, and some even learn another language, lots of exceptions, but in general…
Better to stick with GA I guess
The Danish couple with whom I just spent a week on vacation had a different perspective on their own Scandinavian culture. My friend is rather happy to be working in software for Apple in the US, free of what he describes as a “caste system” (his words) based on educational level, one that limits one’s pay for a lifetime regardless of skill. I suspect he’s making $200 or 250K a year gross in the US without much education except what he taught himself, so that might color his opinion. If I recall correctly he may also have picked up some training in his mandatory military service in the Danish Navy.
My friend also likes the idea of saving and retiring at 62 (I think that’s his plan) versus saving little and retiring at 68 with everybody else born the same year as he, as he puts it. We had plenty of time to talk – at one point last week in a group of three Swiss, three Danish, one German and me (the mongrel), eating dinner in a Mexico City high rise apartment. He mentioned returning to Denmark at some point after early retirement, when he’s saved enough that he doesn’t have to care too much about what income-level caste others think he’s in, or should be in
The US is not a mono-culture in the way of many countries, it is a extremely diverse and often incompatible mix of people thrown into one place and system. I think that tends to make one a little more pragmatic about how to get things done effectively for everybody regardless of their personal goals, culture and values.
Silvaire wrote:
I think its a bit funny that a paper receipt is considered (by some) so important
…
Silvaire wrote:
I write them a check
Funny!
This is an English speaking board with 80-90% Brits
That’s bollocks and you must know it, so why post this stuff?? The forum language is 100% English but that’s the only true part of what you said.
However, discussing this on a board like this? I mean, it’s 100% useless. So it’s more a matter of discussing stuff that the English speaking crowd can relate to, rather than being offensive about “national quirks”. The sad and simple fact is that discussing politics with English speaking people can only be done through the narrow perspective that the native English (only) speaker has.
Hey, LeSving, if you dislike EuroGA so much, why do you keep coming back here and bad-mouthing it?
Quite a lot of people have suggested deleting this thread, but so far I think it is not quite warranted. The funny thing is how many people have posted so much here while diligently avoiding generating any GA related content, but that is a well known aspect of forum psychology (a small % fortunately)
Graham wrote:
Paying someone in cash who subsequently does not declare the income for taxation purposes is not “aiding and abetting tax evasion”. There is no obligation on you, the customer, to ensure your vendor has their tax affairs in order. How could there possibly be? How would it work?
There actually is something like it in Swedish tax legislation. If you e.g. contract an individual to do work on your house, you have to check that (s)he is registered as an employer (for self-employment). This check is easily done on the tax authority web site. If you don’t and (s)he isn’t, you will be liable for that persons taxes as if you yourself were the employer. In principle, you have to do this check even if you contract a company, but then the risk is much less.
Note: For Silvaire and other people who may not be accustomed to this taxation system (which is common in Europe), each individual pays income tax on his/her earning, but in practise the employer pays the tax and deducts it from the salary. The employer additionally has to pay what is essentially a social security insurance fee for each employer.
in practise the employer pays the tax and deducts it from the salary
That is pretty universal – otherwise tax collection would be ~ 100x harder.
If you e.g. contract an individual to do work on your house, you have to check that (s)he is registered as an employer (for self-employment). This check is easily done on the tax authority web site. If you don’t and (s)he isn’t, you will be liable for that persons taxes as if you yourself were the employer. In principle, you have to do this check even if you contract a company, but then the risk is much less.
That’s amazing, to impose such a burden on private individuals. That’s a huge intrusion in someone private life, and IMHO unfair because crooks are generally much more clever than average private individuals. Or maybe it is only for building work? Can you buy a washing machine for cash, in Sweden?
It won’t be watertight because e.g. while there is an EU website for checking whether someone’s VAT number is valid (for the purpose of not charging VAT – post-brexit this scheme no longer operates) we have still had a steady (but low) stream of bogus VAT numbers, and we lose the VAT amount on those sales.
In all these differences, it is worth remembering that most of us live in “developed” countries where the state takes around 40% or more of what is produced every year, and then distributes as the state sees fit. This includes services (e.g., garbage collection, schools), infrastructure (roads), enforcement (admin and defence) as well as a big chunk of redistribution.
The US, while at the lower end, is not fundamentally different, but there are probably states which exceed 50% and other states where it is much lower than the average would indicate.
(Source: OECD, Total government spending as a %age of GDP, 2019 so no COVID)
(Note – I am using spending here; revenues are lower as almost all countries are running deficits. The arguing whether that is a stupidity tax on conservative investors or a yoke for future generations is best left to an economics forum)
And since the higher income / richer part of the population do most of the paying, all countries have developed systems that make sure that they do. It just takes different forms.
VAT, pay-as-you-earn / deduction of tax at source making companies tax collectors (there are fewer of them so it is easier to police), which leads to the misunderstanding that VAT is a tax on companies – it is not, it is a consumption tax, it’s just collected by the company.
Peter wrote:
That’s amazing, to impose such a burden on private individuals. That’s a huge intrusion in someone private life, and IMHO unfair because crooks are generally much more clever than average private individuals.
I agree it is a burden, but how is it an intrusion in someones private life?
Or maybe it is only for building work?
It’s whenever you contract someone for services. I guess that the rational is that the buyer will almost always realise if the service is paid for with “black money.”
Can you buy a washing machine for cash, in Sweden?
From a legal point of view, sure. If the retailer accepts cash is another matter. More and more retailers in Sweden have stopped accepting cash because of the high costs involved with handling cash and the general acceptance of electronic payment.
Peter wrote:
That’s amazing, to impose such a burden on private individuals. That’s a huge intrusion in someone private life, and IMHO unfair because crooks are generally much more clever than average private individuals.
Can’t comment on Sweden, but we have very similar regulations in Germany. Over here the debate is really only theoretic. In practice it is much more simple! It’s all about applying due diligence as a customer. If the service provider mocks the customer with a false VAT etc., obviously the customer is not in charge of paying the taxes and social security. Never heard of any case even in the distance of this happening.
Reality is much more simple: You know quite well if you pay the carpenter, the gardener or the cleaner on or off the records. In more than 95% of the practical cases of tax and social security evasion with personal services, the customer and the provider actually willingly collude to make them happen.
I honestly fail to see how it can be perceived as “an intrusion into private life” that I have to ask a service provider for a proper invoice. In my perception, to commission some individual or business to do some services for me is not part of my “private life” but rather an economic transaction.
Airborne_Again wrote:
I agree it is a burden, but how is it an intrusion in someones private life?
Because it is requiring one person to verify that the tax affairs of another person are in order.
It’s the ultimate extension of asking you to grass up your fellow citizen to the authorities: make you jointly responsible for their wrongdoing so you have no choice but to do so.
I’m heartily glad it isn’t the case here, and is never likely to be.
Airborne_Again wrote:
From a legal point of view, sure. If the retailer accepts cash is another matter. More and more retailers in Sweden have stopped accepting cash because of the high costs involved with handling cash and the general acceptance of electronic payment.
The provision of a physical means of currency exchange, funded centrally and exchangeable between citizens ad-hoc without traceability is an important function of government. Many vested interests wish to see the end of cash and move societies to entirely electronic payments, principally because (a) it means they or someone else can levy a small commission on each transaction, and (b) every transaction is recorded.
