I didn’t argue about Europe or UK spilling loads of blood in their time. Of course countries like Britain, France, Germany and Belgium all had their empires and of course they spilled a lot of blood. You can go back to the Roman empire if you like but all this has nothing to do with Covid, or the fact that the USA is supposed to be land of the free. And it by no means excuses Europeans for.burying their heads in the sand over Covid.
My question is how come one thing such as a mandated injection or a Covid pass is an attack on freedom but conscripting kids and sending them off to die in a far off country for some form of idealism is not?
i do not understand why us supreme rulings on mandatory vaccination or states imposed ruling in case of an epidemic
should be off topic and/or political in the general discussion of the covid situation ??!!
1886/1905? This is very old. Different times. Even during our lifetimes, society has become much less deferential. And now we have social media which has dramatically changed the picture (mostly for the worse in this case).
My question is how come one thing such as a mandated injection or a Covid pass is an attack on freedom but conscripting kids and sending them off to die in a far off country for some form of idealism is not?
That’s why I moved the post(s), so this can be discussed in the right place 
sorry, peter, but the us has “case law” that means whatever the us supreme court ruled upon is the valid judicature of the constitution and law of the land by judicature until it would be overturned by a new ruling of the us supreme court or new laws.
this is NOT very old. it is the standing JUDICATURE by the us supreme court on this very crucial questions.
I suspect the US Supreme Court will soon be hearing the current Federal administration’s attempt to order a “work around” vaccine mandate (through workplace safety law), now that the Federal Court has ruled to prevent it, with the Federal judge IIRC using the phrase “grossly unconstitutional” in the current ruling.
The US has not had mandatory military service for almost 50 years (it was in place for 33 years from 1940-1973, created to remove threatening foreign totalitarian regimes of the era) and has a professional military to “provide for the common defense” as per the Constitution.
It is the same court that judged in the 20s that public health justified forced sterilisation of “feeble minded”. I don’t know if that has been overturned yet, the world has moved on. Nobody would dare to use this as precedent today.
Likewise the finding that anti-gay sodomy laws are constitutional, that citizens of Japanese can be detained without due process, or that black people cannot be citizens and are not protected by the constitution have all been overturned.
I do not want to compare these judicial atrocities with vaccination, but he US supreme court develops, and just because it judged on smallpox (case fatality rate 30 percent) does not mean it will do the same for Covid (case fatality rate around 1-2 percent or lower).
If anything, in its recent history it has done a better job than in the increasingly distant past protecting the people from government infringing the constitutional rights…
I personally think it’s highly unlikely the gross Executive Branch overreach that came with ordering a vaccine mandate in disguise will succeed. The Federal Court was apparently as offended as I was that an obvious legal manipulation (“work around”) had been attempted.
I also appreciate beyond measure that the US has the Constitution it has, to tame the ambitions of the Federal Government in running our lives, with our money, contrary to our wishes. The people who created it were geniuses.
Silvaire wrote:
I also appreciate beyond measure that the US has the Constitution it has, to tame the ambitions of the Federal Government in running our lives, with our money, contrary to our wishes
Most western countries have clear cut divisions between different branches of power. They also have mechanisms for limiting the power of the government, both local and domestic. The crucial point is our wishes. Only Switzerland has a mechanism to measure what that is in any given circumstance, or for any given case. Still, this will only measure what the majority wants.
I wonder Silvaire. Have you ever read or studied anything except the US constitutional way of government? 
Freedom and democracy existed long before the USA became independent from England.
austria has announced that mandatory vaccination will come 1.2.2022
no drafts for a legal way to do that on the table as yet.
germany is in discussion. german law and medethical specialists point in a positiv direction (that is for the mandatory vaccination).
also in austria it might very well pass legal challenges.
i myself am very cautious and critical with a mandatory vaccination, that is: the state ordering people to have something done with their body
they do not want.
but as i could say for austria:
we are between a rock and a hard place (or isnt there a proverb like that?)
it comes down to the simple decision:
is the right (and need) of a community for a functioning (life saving for all !!) health system
overruling the right/freedom of an individual not to get vaccinated?
is the right of a (probably older) person to stay in icu
not getting out triaged to death stronger than the freedom of a healthy person not to get vaccinated?
the next question would be:
if the majority in a democracy votes on a mandatory vaccination.
would it bind the minority?
comes down also to legal and constutional questions here in austria.
i think the holdings of the us supreme court that i posted are very interesting in argumentation.
(you cannot say they are not good because some of the historical us sc holdings were obviously wrong and consequently overturned by better new ones)
@LeSving, having grown up and gone to school for a period outside of the US, I’m familiar with diverse views on politics, and with history in general. I also know what works, and why, in my own mind, and that the US system quite effectively utilizes the lessons that should be learned.
(Written as I sit with my German wife in Mexico City )
LeSving wrote:
Freedom and democracy existed long before the USA became independent from England.
ist year History lesson @LeSving……..
The Americans in the Thirteen Colonies formed independent states that defeated the British in the American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), gaining independence from the British Crown and establishing the United States of America, the first modern constitutional liberal democracy.
2nd Year History lesson @LeSving……….
The Highland Clearances (Scottish Gaelic: Fuadaichean nan Gàidheal [ˈfuət̪ɪçən nəŋ ˈɡɛː.əl̪ˠ], the “eviction of the Gaels”) were the evictions of a significant number of tenants in the Scottish Highlands and Islands, mostly from 1750 to 1860.
Think you may be wrong on all counts and revisit fact…..
