While I know I am biased, a PA46 piston is a wonderful pressurised turbocharged single. They are not cheap however compared to other non pressurised turbocharged aircraft.
I never considered that you could operate a normally aspirated single the way Peter does.
Try asking him about his TB20’s climb rate between FL180-200! 
Yes it is very low, and in ISA+10 close to zero.
But in the context of flying away from frontal wx anyway, FL180 is plenty. Staying above stratus, I have only very rarely had to go to FL190. FL200, never – that has been used only above convective wx like this
What FL250 gives you is the ability to remain VMC above most warm fronts (which tend to be solid) and above most cold fronts and troughs (which tend to be lumpy but you don’t ever want to be in IMC there, even if it is theoretically too cold for icing).
It’s a personal choice. Thus far I have not felt a TB21 is worth getting. Just about every turbo pilot I speak to privately gives me a catalogue of engine issues.
If I was doing much more “scheduled” flying then I would have to upgrade, but it would not be another piston. The PA46 piston engine is highly stressed and really borderline in that installation. I know a guy who flew one almost daily (human organ transport in the USA, overnight) and he said that while it was a great aircraft, it never made a year without a lot of engine work.
For me it would be the only next logical step Below 2000kg = no IFR charges, pressurised = no oxygen issues, Avtur = no avgas issues, FL270, deice, radar, and goes like a rocket (I have flown in one). Cost is probably a little more than a new SR22. Operating cost… probably 2x of a TB20.
Aviathor,
Yes but that is in a country where they are talking about introducing a minimum wage of 4.000 CHF…
Well, as it looks it will, thankfully, be soundly rejected. It was a socialist attempt to force a minimum wage, not unlike it has been tried in Germany, but it would actually destroy a lot of low wage jobs and drive companies out of this country. Not that Switzerland has given them a lot of incentive to stay recently.
Shorrick
Precisely – they talk about the minimum wage because it’s rather difficult to make ends meet for less than that (other than a student lifestyle admittedly) in some parts of Switzerland. So that oughta tell you exactly how far you can get on 4k a month, and I can tell you that definitely will NOT include private flying… 4k gross is about 3.5 net, so seen as how even a one room appartment will set you back at least 1k CHF, and mandatory health insurance another 300, mandatory retirement about 600… there’s really not much left at the end of the month.
4k minimum won’t change anything in that, but what it will do, should it be passed, is that it will take away the incentive for young people to finish school and it will kill a lot of low wage jobs which now help people who otherwise would be on benefits. Yes, Switzerland is expensive at places, yet if one looks out and is flexible, one can always find a way to make it. I was in a situation for a while when I had to make do with significantly less primary income (about 2500 net) and still found ways to increase it by doing other things on the side and still kept my then Cessna 150 flying. It depends strongly if we are talking of a one person household where 4k is more than enough in most places or a family. In Families, nowadays mostly both parents need to be working in one way or the other, let alone in couples without kids, where I don’t know a single one where not both are working. The 4k law, were it accepted, would exactly kill off most of the additional chances of income which now are available to people like that. What would be way more important is to stop salary dumping by foreign workers effectively.
At 400 CHF per flight hour for a Mooney, or 300 CHF for an Archer III… I don’t see how anyone could be encouraged to go touring!
That is why serious travelling is only possible with one’s own airplane. Even in Switzerland it is well possible to own a Mooney or a PA28 for less than that hour price. I do. We calculate about 300 Chf/hr for my Mooney on a base of 100 hrs per year. With 400 / hr I’d need about 50-60 hrs per year (as the 50 hrs check would not be necessary. I know of an owners group who fly a PA28-180 for 200 CHF/hr.
I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine who now owns a light twin. He sais that even with the twin’s higher cost he now pais less per hour (recalculated from total spending/year divided by hours) than he used to when he flew a PARO from a flying club.
The trouble I have been seeing is that it can be very difficult in our area to amass sufficient hours due to the very high cancellation rate in VFR. Weather has been a paramount problem here for pre-planned flights and my own despatch rate in 2013 has hit an all time low with ONE (1) flight out of my whole year’s schedule actually taking place as planned. That is why I am looking intensively for an IFR upgrade.
It has to be added that some of the charter groups are ready to talk to you if you tell them what you want and how many hours you will fly. One of my colleagues here rented out an Archer for a tour of the Med for 3 weeks but significantly below their minimum daily hour requirement and they agreed on a significantly lower total hour number.
Below 2000kg = no IFR charges, pressurised = no oxygen issues, Avtur = no avgas issues, FL270, deice, radar, and goes like a rocket (I have flown in one).
That’s true and those are great features.
Cost is probably a little more than a new SR22.
Hm … I’ve been frequently checking available ones at market and the cheapest one is above $550k. Add some work that’s for sure needed and we’re talking about $600k. If you’re targeting newer airframe and lower engine hours, you’ll easy end up in $1mil vicinity or even above. And then again when comparing let’s not compare apples and oranges – new SR22 is new aircraft with fancy avionics, 2000 hours TBO and flying around 200kts while JetProp you get is probably 10-20 years old airframe with old avionics, 1600-1800 hours TBO and flying at speed of 240kts.
Operating cost… probably 2x of a TB20.
Probably … and having in mind high purchase price the insurance will be much higher, maintenance will be more expensive, you can expect issues with old airframe, fuel cost will be probably in the same range (if you consider MPG) and payload will be more-less the same.
The issue I generaly see with this aircraft is – no local low altitude sightseeing flights. It’s travelling machine and that’s just a part of my mission – I like my city overhead panoramic flights, short flights to sea side etc. My most frequent flights are below 2 hours e.g. with TB20 I need 45 min to LDLO or LDPL, 50 min to LDZD, 1:15 to LDSP, 1:45 to LDDU, 1:15 to LQSA, 1:30 to LYBE just to name few.
MD by the way have you seen my latest email – I had a few q’s about insurance. I still think 300 per hour is too much – Annemasse run their Archer IIIs at 240 per hour and that is in a club setting…. proof that with low enough prices you can drain enough people to make it work (which is why i think people not stopping flying is paramount…. getting them exposed is not enough).
Re. the 4’000 min wage I agree with you. My point was just to warn other people that while yes you can make it work on less than 4’000 per month (when I dispatched for Jet Aviation I was on a 3’300 gross basis and the rampies were at 2’900) – 4’000 CHF really isn’t a lot of money in Switzerland, compared to say France, Spain, Germany etc.
I’ve been frequently checking available ones at market and the cheapest one is above $550k. Add some work that’s for sure needed and we’re talking about $600k. If you’re targeting newer airframe and lower engine hours, you’ll easy end up in $1mil vicinity or even above
Yes, Emir, I think a good JP is $1M. $600k will get you one which needs work done, and you don’t want a shagged [insert your favourite old plane], especially not one where the engine OH is about 10x the cost of a piston engine OH. But a fully loaded SR22 is $750k. If you have 750k you also have 1M
There is a guy here (eal) who is a specialist who did a lot of research before he bought his, and I believe there are other Jetprop owners here too.
Is an SR22 really going to give you 200kt, at any realistic altitude and fuel flow? At FL250 you will need a mask for everybody. A cannula+O2D2 will work but only if you breathe very deliberately. IMHO that is not practical, and just about nobody does it.
The issue I generaly see with this aircraft is – no local low altitude sightseeing flights
Agreed. It is a machine for a different mission profile. That’s why I don’t have one. I have looked at doing a syndicate or something like that.
Slightly above that, there is a used TBM700, at about $1.3M, which is a much more solid aircraft and better in every way, but the costs are 2x higher again, and not just because it is a “Socata” (you could run an N-reg TBM on strictly Part 91, even if almost nobody does it).
If you are venturing into the land of gas turbines you better have mighty deep pockets, purchase and running costs and just a small part, we have a Bell 206 Jetranger (my business partner flies this and I fly the Commander) and its coming up to a turbine maintenance which will be £80k, it has timed and calendar replacements as well, all of which carry eye watering price tags, and not just because its a heli…
And if you accidentally hot start you’re into £25k, straight away….
Agreed. It is a machine for a different mission profile. That’s why I don’t have one.
That’s why I’m considering DA42 – depending on engines and altitude it can give 160 to 200kts, FL180 is easy to reach, climb performance is very good (even high altitude) while at the same time low/slow cruise is normal operating mode. Pricewise it’s half of PropJet and maintenance shouldn’t be much more than TB20. I guess that payload is similar to TB20, range and MPG as well (with much cheaper fuel in our region).
I have looked at doing a syndicate or something like that.
It seems to me that this is not realistic option for Croatia. Very few people actually fly at all and I know only one person (currently owining Seneca) who is maybe maybe maybe interested in going for some SET.
And if you accidentally hot start you’re into £25k, straight away….
But why should someone hot start? I have performed between 4000 and 5000 turbine starts and there hasn’t been a single start malfunction, apart from the simulator where it goes wrong every second time. And even if something went wrong, with proper training (without which it would be foolish to operate any turbine driven aircraft) there should be no consequences at all.
Yes, Emir, I think a good JP is $1M.
For that money, I would rather buy myself a well maintained Cessna 421 and pay the higher fuel and airway fees with the interest the 800.000$ remaining in my bank account generate for me.
