Correct me if I’m wrong, but does Denmark also have a kind of “port of entry” requirement? It seems that they actually don’t care if you fly directly from/to a small airfield in the country, and quite a lot of GA-airfields are actually marked as “port of entry” anyway. But what is the official case in Denmark?
Denmark has nothing of that kind. They merely have an AIP entry that still says (ever since they enacted Schengen in 2001) that entry to and exit from Denmark has to be via a list of international aerodromes. But this is not enforced at all. And they probably couldn‘t even if they wanted to.
BTW: What would happen if we just fly also directly from e.g. Italy to a small Greek airfield? And what keeps me from exiting Greece at a small airfield? I could just skip a PoE and fly directly towards Italy (or Croatia in 2023)? Can I get prosecuted at home for this?
What normally happens when people file such flightplans is that the Greek ARO will object and either this is notified to the crew before departure, or if not during the flight, and then the flight gets re-routed. But I haven‘t heard any recent accounts if such cases. Of course one could try without any flightplan and transponder, and then it depends on how sharp the aerial surveilance via primary radar is. In the case of Greece, I wouldn‘t try it.
or if not during the flight,
You announce your diversion a few mins before the border.
Peter wrote:
You announce your diversion a few mins before the border.
Some things are better left discussed over a beer. :)
boscomantico wrote:
Denmark has nothing of that kind. They merely have an AIP entry that still says (ever since they enacted Schengen in 2001) that entry to and exit from Denmark has to be via a list of international aerodromes. But this is not enforced at all. And they probably couldn‘t even if they wanted to.Ah perfect, got it! Even the DFS “VFR cross-border manual” says Denmark requires a PoE. That makes such documents pretty unreliable, to say it in a politically correct way.
But this is not enforced at all. And they probably couldn‘t even if they wanted to.
I don’t understand this.
No country can do anything about an illegal departure, if a flight plan was filed which looks legal in terms of the destination. The departure country is not going to find out until after you have landed, and there is a fair chance that nobody will care anyway.
But this is nothing to do with ports of entry. It is another “practical” v. “legal” debate.
One extremely well known pilot, ex EuroGA too, posted, IIRC, that almost every day for years he filed a bizjet for Biggin Hill and diverted to Heathrow (LHR at the time didn’t allow bizjets, didn’t do the slots, whatever). Lots of this stuff went on. I am sure you won’t get away with this today in the UK, but clearly a few times a year, done with care, all is fine. With Greek departures, there are cases where you have to depart for a schengen destination (e.g. LGKC) so you file for Italy or whatever, and you can divert to say Croatia quite late in the flight. Probably best to announce your diversion after entering a country other than the country of departure. And if the airport of departure could have done a C+I clearance (but actually didn’t – a common Greek situation due to a €45/aircraft scam they used to run at e.g. LGMT) then it is certain that ATC will not question anything. And all diversions are due to weather – if questioned, which they never are. Just another tool in your toolbox.
I have never seen a Customs person anywhere in GA (actually looking at what I was carrying).
I see them every time I fly from Croatia to Bosnia or Serbia.
Even the DFS “VFR cross-border manual” says Denmark requires a PoE.
I don’t think that PoE in this context is an airport; I’d say it’s an aeronautical point on the map.
Peter wrote:
No country can do anything about an illegal departure, if a flight plan was filed which looks legal in terms of the destination. The departure country is not going to find out until after you have landed, and there is a fair chance that nobody will care anyway.This has been done by Swiss pilots, coming from Italy and diverted directly to Locarno or so. They ended up in some trouble with the Italian financial police upon their next visit. However, as always, these are ‘just’ stories and they are definitely older than the new EU 2020/877 regulation. Fact remains however that Italy still doesn’t seem to practice the new EU regulation, like Germany and France now – finally – do.
I don’t think that PoE in this context is an airport; I’d say it’s an aeronautical point on the map.No, the DFS is really referring to an airport with PoE status in their “VFR cross-border manual”, not a certain ATS-waypoint or so. Most Danish airfields have however a PoE status, which makes it irrelevant for most flights anyways. Just grass strips don’t have that status, but as @boscomantico said, it is just a note in the AIP, but it is not enforced at all. Denmark applies Schengen and EU customs zone in avaiation like any other normal EU+Schengen country. Just on the land border, there are some checks at the German-Danish border, since migration waves in 2015. Swedish police checks also at the Øresund Bridge, but doesn’t care for GA.
They ended up in some trouble with the Italian financial police upon their next visit.
Yes; that is what one would expect – on a later visit.
However, as always, these are ‘just’ stories and they are definitely older than the new EU 2020/877 regulation. Fact remains however that Italy still doesn’t seem to practice the new EU regulation, like Germany and France now – finally – do.
You mean the reg requiring every airport in the EU to offer Customs?
Last I heard, nobody was willing to risk testing it, especially in CH/DE where you might get this.
It also doesn’t help with Immigration. And the reg does not say “zero PN”; the country can impose whatever PN they want, or make whatever charge they want.
Peter wrote:
You mean the reg requiring every airport in the EU to offer Customs?No, EU 2020/877 actually makes it possible to use non-customs airfields from/to non-EU member states. However, this only applies to customs, not to immigration (Schengen) and therefore, only applicable when coming from Norway or Switzerland to a full EU/Schengen country (and vice versa). Also, Norwegian and Swiss customs procedures on their side didn’t change.
Last I heard, nobody was willing to risk testing it, especially in CH/DE where you might get this.This happened before the EU 2020/877 regulation was introduced.
Frans wrote:
Fact remains however that Italy still doesn’t seem to practice the new EU regulation, like Germany and France now – finally – do.
Yes, it seems that Germany does now allow direct flights from Switzerland to any airfield in Germany. A letter from German customs is available that can be kept on board, just in case a local office isn’t aware.
I hadn’t heard that France now allows direct flights from Switzerland to any airfield in France. Do you have any substantiating information in that regard @Frans, other than just that people are doing it? I do know of a couple specific cases where French customs have acknowledged (not rejected, therefore approved?) the “standard” form announcing direct flights to some airfields which officially don’t have customs service, sent in advance to the responsible regional customs agency.
