esteban wrote:
It had been a nice dream that after the fall of communism, we (the former East block) would be able to join the west in this glorious and free world.
You know, @Esteban, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. The alignment with the West has worked pretty darn well for all the former Soviet satellite states. It’s only Russia itself that keeps sliding backwards. Ask yourself why.
PS: one country where I agree with you is Ukraine. Here unfortunately some European countries, led by Germany, blocked any move towards the West. We see the horrific results as I write this.
172driver wrote:
You know, @Esteban, you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink.
I wish it was that easy as ‘we want functional democracy and economy’. voilà!
Getting rid of entrenched interests and corruption is a slow and painful process, with many setbacks. Seeing that your shining exemplars on the west are not so shiny anymore also does not help.
The alignment with the West has worked pretty darn well for all the former Soviet satellite states.
I am not sure you are up to date on the state of former Soviet satellite states. Most of the former Sovies union states (except Baltics) are not exactly in alignment with the West (Belarus, pretty much all of Central Asia, google Turkmenistan for a real gem).
Even the satellite states that are now in NATO and EU (Hungary, Poland) have tendencies that are not exactly up to western values.
It’s only Russia itself that keeps sliding backwards. Ask yourself why.
Unfortunately, that is for historic scholars to eventually figure out, once the (hopefully non-radioactive) dust settles. No, ‘Putin’ is way too simplistic answer. Perhaps they are too proud of their history and don’t aspire to be just another meddling western state.
PS: one country where I agree with you is Ukraine. Here unfortunately some European countries, led by Germany, blocked any move towards the West. We see the horrific results as I write this
I am pretty sure we disagree quite deeply on Ukraine, just read my previous posts.
Yes sure the West has its problems, but at least we are free to express our opinion. It may be ignored or disagreed with, but you can express it.
In some countries, people are not permitted to express an opinion which is not the same as the Government’s, even if the majority of the populace agrees with you.
With regards to Russia and Ukraine, there is bo doubt that western leaders should have done better. We have to accept that there are totalitarian, despotic, loony, royal leaderships in some countries and we really shouldn’t try to impose our ways on them.
However, here we have a country whose leadership is trying to impose its will on another country, by force. We need to stop making excuses for Putin and his gang.
Yes, Russia is a nuclear power and no we do not know the mental state of the man who can order them to be launched. But should we let his threats of using them deter us from what we believe to be right.
Under Ronald Regan huge sums of money was poured into optical computers, under what was called “The Star Wars” programme. The aim of it
was to make ballistic missiles, especially ICBMs, obsolete. Russia complained and wanted to start WW3 but Regan promised a different route.If it worked rhe USA would give Russia the technology, so they too would be protected. Not long after that a nuclear non proliferation treaty was signed and the Berlin Wall came down. Germany was reunified.
The non proliferation agreement meant Star Wars was no longer necessary and research was halted. Or was it?
There are so many things we don’t know and perhaps never will so some actions might seem strange or incomprehensible or just plain daft, they are decisions based on knowledge that we probably don’t have. And neither do the media, so they fill in the gaps with opinion claiming it to be fact.
As pilots, when something goes wrong with the aircraft or faced with an unexpected situation, we need to quickly analyse the situation and make a decision on the best course of action to take. If we get it wrong we could kill ourselves and others. In making that decision we need to trust our own ability.
A Government also has decisions to make. But they often have to do it with a lot of contradictory advice being thrown at them. If they get it wrong many people may suffer, many may die. In a democracy the people do get some say in who we trust to make those decisions, and if we get it wrong….
In a totalitarian state only a few get to choose who will make those decisions.
Either way we’re screwed if the decision makers get it wrong.😁
Esteban quote:
“I find it deeply disturbing that instead of taking Putin at his word (“We consider keeping Ukraine out of NATO crucial for out security and will go to war over this.”) repeated with increasing urgency over many years, the west preferred to continue with its eastward push. What is the worst that can happen, right? The Russians were forced to swallow previous NATO expansions, surely will do so again.”
I agree. I also find it deeply disturbing that UK government, and even more so Scottish government, politicians appear to make statements mainly for publicity without considering their effect on reality.
Freedom of public speech here is much reduced in the last 10 years, and news media are degraded.
LeSving wrote:
Now if the world was populated only by Gretas and flat earthers. Then every single person would believe the world was flat, and no one would ever question it, ever. IMO the world is a bit like that atm.
You are seriously comparing flat earthers to a person whose only message is really “listen to the scientists”!?
Mooney_Driver wrote:
Prior to the Internet and particularly social media you had comparatively few experts who had to prove their worth before they got published or onto TV or whatever.
In my opinion the world hasn’t changed so much. It is still comparatively few experts who get published in TV or newspapers. We must not make the mistake to compare FB, Insta or Telegram with TV or newspapers. They are the regulars’ tables (“Stammtisch”) of our times. Even 100 years ago in every pub their have been people who pretended they could explain the world. The only thing that has changed is transparency: 100years ago you could only conjecture how much BS has been told in pubs every night – now you get it live from every pub globally…
Mooney_Driver wrote:
I guess this is the gross problem which brings the two together: Whether it is “experts” on whatever or “flat earthers” who only believe their senses, it all depends what platform they have and how many willing suckers they are able to reach.
In my opinion the even bigger commonality these days is that in either group – incl. the group of “non flat earthers” – for a majority of members “being right” has become far more important than “doing right”.
Flat earthers are a wonderfull example as there is one simple fact that is even much more obvious than the original question if the earth is round or flat: For 99,9…% of people it is completely irrelevant if the earth is flat! If you are not a space engineer, designing long range radio equipment or (for some specific questions) a meteorologist, it simply doesn’t matter to you. Still, people on both sides of the debate are extremely passionate about making sure they are right.
Coming back to the Russia crisis we currently can observe a great example of how the same facts can (completely w/o bending them) be translated into 2 almost contradicting narratives – and how we in our Western European/US bubble of dreams still ignore the fact that the world is different from what we want to believe:
The UN general assembly vote to reprimand Russia for invading the Ukraine.
Without any meaningful dissent, our western media celebrate the fact that 141 out of 193 members of the general assembly have supported the vote and take that as a proof that the world is unequivocally condemning the acts of Russia.
It is, however, also a fact, that the countries that did not support the vote represent about 50% of global population! So with the same facts one can also tell the story, that the world is seriously split on the question if Russia does or does not do the right thing.
Sad truth: With our Western ideas of freedom and peace we have become a minority on this world!
Malibuflyer wrote:
We must not make the mistake to compare FB, Insta or Telegram with TV or newspapers.
Well, way too many people do exactly that and get their news from totally unverified and outright wrong sources. Social Media, Youtube and so on are the worst propaganda tools ever invented in the wrong hands, and EVERYTHING ever invented got into wrong hands eventually.
The press today is in many regards trying to do their job as news agencies but the main problem there is that they are all click-dependent and therefore will distort any sort of information they get in such a way to generate more of those. Plus they spin the news in the way their owner wishes or their political affiliates and advertizers ask them to.
As a result, most of reported “facts” are not facts at all but some spin doctor’s world view spread over the globe. And they do have a receptive audience of mostly simple people who will believe whatever suits their world view best. We live in a post-factual society which eats up any form of fake news and disinformation and create their own vision of how the world ought to be. Consequently, in recent years, more and more radical groups have emerged who spread hatred and discord instead of cooperation and transpartisanship. It is horriffic that it does indeed take events like this war with the threat of anihilation of all of us for people to at least on the surface to come together.
But if you think they really are, think again. There are loads of people, also within EU states, who openly support Putin and think it is the West who forced this war on him. There are people in NATO States today who wish their countries to get out of NATO in order not to be on the line if things go bad. I’ve yet again had to read comments of people I thought I knew which made my heart stop and wonder what I have believed all those years. Many people don’t give a fart about freedom the moment it becomes dangerous to defend it.
Malibuflyer wrote:
Sad truth: With our Western ideas of freedom and peace we have become a minority on this world!
We always were.
Malibuflyer wrote:
So with the same facts one can also tell the story, that the world is seriously split on the question if Russia does or does not do the right thing.
For many countries it is not the question whether Russia is right or wrong. It is the question of not pissing off somone who openly threatens nuclear war to anyone who does. Add to that, quite a few of those countries are far away from it and simply wish to continue their daily business without the threat of Russia spoiling it. Emirates, India, Pakistan, China, just to name a few, are probably not too enthusiastic about what he does, but if he leaves them in peace, so be it.
Only the near future will tell who fares better. Europe and America right now are making a stand for something they believe in strongly enough to risk anihilation over it. None of the above states think that way, freedom as we call it is not a concept there in the first place, so why fight for it. I would not be surprised that in the end of this, if there is one survivable, exactly those countries are going to be the ones thriving while those of us left will dig ourselves out of the rubble.
The problem is the UN sadly is pretty useless. Not at all what was envisaged when the League of Nations was founded.
I have yet to hear one legitimate reason that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is more than just a power and land grab by a despotic government.
This has all the hallmarks of the Ukraine becoming Russia’s Ireland. 100 years later and the people of the North are still walking a tightrope.
The solution to Russia’s concerns will not be found in bombarding innocent civilians in their own homes.
Would Estonia, Latvia and others have joined NATO of their own free will, if they were not concerned about the need for some defence?
And you don’t have to be a genius to know who they are defending themselves from.
People have a right to defend their homeland, they do not have the right to attack someone else’s.
Most wars are won and lost through hearts and minds, not through bullets and shells.
