As mentioned, of course, I try to follow the published circuits to the best of my ability. I have participated in navigation competitions and did not come last at least. I did not mean disrespect for anyone’s work. However, requiring 45hr VFR pilots not familiar with a field to maintain 50m accuracy to some arbitrary line in the air is simply crazy. Even P-RNAV is +- one mile. One should definitely not focus on a magenta line in the circuit.
What I was trying to say is that when it comes to the actual flying, if for some reason I deviated, or did not, then somebody complained in the air, I could not care less. I always prioritize “Aviate”. Some circuits published here are base-to-final stalls waiting to happen.
PS: Eslöv has noise-sensitive areas, check it out. 
Dimme wrote:
However, requiring 45hr VFR pilots not familiar with a field to maintain 50m accuracy to some arbitrary line in the air is simply crazy.
I did say “100’s of meters”. The narrowest part is immediately following a turn after takeoff from one of the runways and as long as you try keep to the published course, you’ll be fine. But if you disregard the turn and climb straight out, I guarantee that I as aeroclub chairman is going to get a message from the city environment and health office because a particular person will have filed a complaint.
Btw: That turn requirement is published in AIP.
PS: Eslöv has noise-sensitive areas, check it out.
If I go there (haven’t yet) you can be 100% certain I will!
Airborne_Again wrote:
I did say “100’s of meters”.
I’m not talking about Sundbro, don’t take everything personally. I’m not coming there to cause havoc and misery any time soon.
Mooney_Driver wrote:
50-100m, the distance does not matter.
What I always found a little strange about noise sensitivity is that flying directly over a place, and flying 100 m horizontally from it makes almost no difference to the sound intensity at the noise sensitive area. At 1000 ft, the sound intensity works out to be about 90% of that for a direct overflight.
zuutroy wrote:
What I always found a little strange about noise sensitivity is that flying directly over a place, and flying 100 m horizontally from it makes almost no difference to the sound intensity at the noise sensitive area. At 1000 ft, the sound intensity works out to be about 90% of that for a direct overflight
But you are talking about real noise not the one imagined or correlated to the eye 
Dimme wrote:
What I was trying to say is that when it comes to the actual flying, if for some reason I deviated, or did not, then somebody complained in the air, I could not care less. I always prioritize “Aviate”
I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment. Following local noise abatement procedures is a case of best endeavours, and if for whatever reason I find myself unable to comply (i.e. aviate has taken priority) then I am not going to enter into a discussion with, or justify my actions to, anyone who has a problem with that.
IMO @Ibra is correct the imagined noise is totally different from the real one.
Modern aircraft like the DA 40 tdi and those equipped with Rotax engines are much quieter than the old Lycosaurus. But even many of those have been fitted with efficient silences. So much so that if measured they are quieter than many motor mowers, motorbikes, some pumped up cars and tractors. Let alone those fitted with base speakers or screaming mopeds, barking dogs and cockerals. The problem is that people find certain noises stick out against those of the background and to many the sound of a light aircraft says that some rich bugger is playing with his new toy and someone needs to do something about it.
Dimme wrote:
As mentioned, of course, I try to follow the published circuits to the best of my ability. I have participated in navigation competitions and did not come last at least. I did not mean disrespect for anyone’s work. However, requiring 45hr VFR pilots not familiar with a field to maintain 50m accuracy to some arbitrary line in the air is simply crazy. Even P-RNAV is +- one mile. One should definitely not focus on a magenta line in the circuit.
Clearly that is the idea. Safety and aviating comes first, however, we are not talking about autopilot steered RNAV procedures, even if you can build them for i.e. VFR routes in and out of airfields and use them quite efficiently. This is VFR, this means looking for the ground features and the actual track over ground resulting from that. Yes, it can be demanding but it should not be something a 45 hour PPL can’t do, as he has to do it on his own field most probably.
I absolutely agree that flying a magenta line in the circuit is out of the question and not the idea. But at least where I come from, we were told very early on that it was important and also considerate towards the hosts you are about to visit that you do your best. And that does include taking on board advice if it turns out you could have done better.
After all, if you go visit someone with your car, you are not going to park on a reserved space of their neighbours or walk through someone’s garden to reach your friends front door?
Ibra wrote:
But you are talking about real noise not the one imagined or correlated to the eye
Very true. There are people who complain about gliders and not all shut up once called out. Best we can do is to keep to the tracks as good as we can.
gallois wrote:
The problem is that people find certain noises stick out against those of the background and to many the sound of a light aircraft says that some rich bugger is playing with his new toy and someone needs to do something about it.
Exactly.
You know, it’s not the only thing people get upset about. Not too long ago some very angry folks turned up at a children’s playground to chase us off because we had violated the curfew that place has by a couple of minutes while trying to convince our 4-5 year olds that it is time to go. They threatened us immediately with the police, which is probably barking more than biting, but well, it turns out that they got the concession from the community that the playground must be vacated between 12 and 2 as well as after 7 pm, otherwise the fine citizens would not have allowed it to be built. Thankfully not in my community but nevertheless a sobering experience.
On the other hand, we had a guy nearby who owned a huge motorcycle… problem was, he obviously had to get to work at 4am and for months on end he had the whole neighborhood stand upright in their beds every workday morning. Would you really blame the said neighborhood to put an end to that? Well, I certainly felt the guy was at the very least insensitive. He is gone now, or at least the noise is. I was told he got several visits from the police over this. Also right now, there is a big police campaign going on to take out of circulation cars which are made noisy to satisfy some immature lust for whatever. We get fistfights and occasional worse stuff over parking spaces.
Things like this simply don’t work anymore.
As I said, we are living in a packed society which by now have extremely low tolerance levels. With the population density we have now, it is anyway a question of time before a lot of formerly attractive outdoor activities won’t be allowed anymore. So I guess it is in everyone’s best interest to try at least to keep to the negotiated rules as much as possible.
Malibuflyer wrote:
The way Frans tells the story, it sounds to me like the core problem not being if the traffic pattern was followed or not.Absolutely, thanks for pointing this out. This topic wasn’t meant to talk about the sense or nonsense of sticking strictly to the traffic pattern. It was about dealing with (unfair) critics from other pilots. How you said it is absolutely right: If this FI would have come to me on the ground and just talked to me in a calm and friendly manner alone, this entire topic wouldn’t exist. This topic exists just because he was disturbing me in an unprofessional way during my approach and also wasn’t right about my position. In this case, I was unlucky to understand Swissgerman, otherwise, I would have ignored him completely.The core problem – and hence I would call it devastatingly bad airmanship by the FI in front of a student – is that everything in this story sounds like this FI not really making a point towards Frans in the first place but rather trying to demonstrate its authority in front of a student. And to do that he was even consciously putting flight safety at risk by putting Frans under pressure via radio multiple times.
Do you have the GPS track available?Unfortunately no. I used my friend’s iPad and forgot to sync the logs to the SkyDemon-cloud. It didn’t do it automatically. Maybe I can do that when I see him again, but that would be earliest in a couple of weeks.
Our airfields are all in way too close proximity to inhabited areas. That is a fact. Therefore, most of the time the published circuits are the results of years of negotiations with the communities and the effort to get them to tolerate the noise produced.I agree on that, but… the idea that everybody in the vicinity of an airfield is angry about each single departing and approaching aircraft is simply not true. Several years ago, the airfield Kägiswil (LSPG) had the fear to be closed, sold, and reused for agricultural land. But thanks to the fact that Kägiswil is in Switzerland, the local people had to vote about its destiny in a referendum. The result? 62,42% voted against the proposal to sell the airfield, which was a clear “Yes” towards the future existence of the airfield. There are now even detailed plans to renovate the runway in 1-2 years, just like what happened in Münster (LSPU) a few years ago.
Dimme wrote:
I try to follow the published circuits to the best of my ability. .. However, requiring 45hr VFR pilots not familiar with a field to maintain 50m accuracy to some arbitrary line in the air is simply crazy. Even P-RNAV is +- one mile. One should definitely not focus on a magenta line in the circuit.
Obviously right – however, as pilots we also need to be honest: In many cases it is not about +-50m and it is not about religiously following a magenta line! In many cases it is simply about negligence or “know it better”-syndrome.
Let’s face it: Esp. as VFR pilots many of us (and I include myself explicitly) are sometimes not well prepared to fly the circuit! Few (and therefore far to many) pilots even insist on the opinion that the patterns in the official AIP charts are only non binding recommendations…
But also if we accept them: Do we really every time prepare well? We obviously should not focus on the magenta line (even if it reflects the pattern accurately) so we need to prepare a different plan: Which landmark do we use to turn into downwind at the right spot? Which landmark do we follow along the downwind? What do I need to see abeam my position to start turn to base?
