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FAA stopping FAA checkrides, and other DPE services, outside the US, except for US citizens

Thanks @AeroPlus @Peter

Which registration does the aircraft have, EASA or N? Which licenses does the instructor have? FAA or EASA?

always learning
LO__, Austria

I think all FAA CFI instructors in Europe are EASA FI/CRI instructors, I can’t think of a single one who does not hold dual papers? except two CFI(G) I met while gliding and one US ferry pilot who comes to UK/Europe from time to time….but not all of them are CPL, IR, MEP instructors in EASA land

Orbifly FAA instructors can teach for EASA CPL, IR, MEP + some TR, it’s EASA ATO after all

I am not aware of any FAA DPE examiners holding EASA examiner certificates

Last Edited by Ibra at 22 Jun 18:52
Paris/Essex, France/UK, United Kingdom

Which registration does the aircraft have, EASA or N?

FAA does not mind.

Which licenses does the instructor have? FAA or EASA?

Long debate depending on which European restrictive practices you are operating. Example.

I think all FAA CFI instructors in Europe are EASA FI/CRI instructors

I have no idea about France but historically it has been to opposite. Of course FAA CFI/CFII guys in Europe without EASA papers are keeping a low profile because the training is provocative politically.

But, this is re training not checkrides, so off topic. Lots of previous threads on FAA training. FAA-acceptable training is basically easy (unless you get a European based DPE who declares your logbook entries invalid because the EASA FI / FAA CFI/CFII was not TSA approved, etc etc etc etc); it was the checkrides that have been a problem since shortly after I got all my FAA papers in the bag, c. 2008. There has even been a fair bit of litigation in this area so I am not saying any more.

Identical threads merged.

If you look at the profile of @abcd who started this thread, you find his website. Maybe he knows more.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

An optimistic update from the website on which this was originally announced.

“After speaking at length with my manager at the NY IFO, I truly believe I will have a positive update for all of you in the very near future.”

I have one eye on this as later this year I will be completing the UK CPL. The UK licence number on which my 61.75 is based (and stated on the 61.75) will change (the GBR.FCL.PP…. will become GBR.FCL.CP…). So I was hoping to use one of the local DPEs who can issue 61.75 certificates, rather than take a trip to the USA. As others have already pointed out, very few FSDOs seem to offer the 61.75 service now; instead their website tells you to contact one of their DPEs.

FI/IRI (London/South East)
EGKB (Biggin Hill), United Kingdom


It would not have been the IFO’s invention anyway. It would have come from somewhere else in the FAA or the US Govt. Historically, the FAA delegated all matters relating to abroad to the IFOs, regardless of what it was about. Even the FAA chief counsel delegated everything to the IFOs. The NY IFO in turn, historically, protected the business of the overseas DPEs. This could not have gone on for ever because people retire, etc.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

and subsequently trained and passed their checkrides in Europe. This avoids the need for a US visa and the associated paperwork, embassy interview, SEVIS application and time away from home etc

Very interesting. How does this work? Training done on N-reg aircraft with FAA CFI/CFIIs? UK or EU?

For UK, I have researched the regulations and written this up on my blog here

I have heard of cases where UK PPL and IMC courses have been instructed on an owners aircraft by UK instructors and the UK PPL skill test conducted by UK examiner. Then paperwork exercise to get a FAA piggyback airman certificate, plus FAA flight review to make it valid. Until now, this didn’t require a trip to the USA.

FAA IR trained with checkride in UK/France, but you have needed at least a brief visit to the USA to sit the one theory exam. However that doesn’t need a visa, although would require TSA alien pilot approval.

FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom

@davidC that’s a good writeup. May I comment on the following from it:

Training can count towards certain FAA licences/ratings

Which ones can’t non-US training be used towards?

but an FAA Flight Review or Instrument Proficiency Check can only be conducted by an FAA instructor who has to be dual licensed (FAA and UK).

Where is the dual license requirement? For many years a UK/JAA/EASA CPL was required for paid training. I don’t think this is there anymore – dig around here for more leads. This serch digs out more leads. I can see the UK/EASA “dual papers” requirement (effective UK Dec 2021) being applicable but not where the RHS does not have to be PIC. For example most BFRs or IPCs are done in a situation where the LHS can be legally PIC on some other papers (e.g. a UK PPL, if the actual conditions are VFR, or UK PPL + IMCR if the actual conditions are IFR and you keep out of Class A). In these cases the FAA CFI/CFII is no more than a passenger and has no legal significance in terms of UK regs, and definitely so if not being paid.

It is a similar argument with a US DPE too. They never have/had Euro papers. The US checkride was done with the candidate logging the flight as PIC. But many years ago one UK based DPE operation was shut down by the CAA under the “CPL” requirement for paid training (they were not doing just checkrides); I have this info from someone working there at the time.

2-Reg and M-Reg

There are considerable complications around those with maintenance.

This Lancair is classed as an Experimental Aircraft – similar to our UK Permit scheme

N400UK is actually a certified Lancair I have flown in it.

However, the above relates to training not checkrides which is what this thread is about.

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

Looks like I need to review/update/expand that article ;)
I had originally aimed it at a UK flight instructor providing UK flight instruction on an N Reg aircraft in the UK, partly to confirm my view that I could instruct an FAA IR holder towards their UK CBIR on their own aircraft.

For FAA ratings, the FAA distinguishes between ICAO flight instruction and FAA flight instruction. Part 61.41 permits non-FAA instructors to deliver training that counts towards a rating, however only an authorised instructor (ie FAA CFI) can certify a student as being ready for the theory test/checkride or sign off a Flight Review or IPC.

Which ones can’t non-US training be used towards?

You could argue that anything can be instructed by a suitably qualified FAA instructor outside the USA, including CPL, ATPL, CFI, CFI-I, type ratings etc. But you’d have to find an instructor with enough experience on type, and an examiner current and qualified to conduct the checkride. I understand that has been awkward for the Cirrus Jet, and imagine that Seaplane ratings might also be difficult. There are a few other aircraft where the FAA doesn’t require a type rating while EASA/UK does (eg Cessna Caravan). But overall, it seems to me less about the rules/regulations preventing anything, which (apart from the latest restrictions) could cover most typical single-engine ratings.

In many cases and especially for the more advanced or specialist ratings, I would have thought that an intensive period at a specialist US flight school would be the better choice.

However it does seem excessive to close off the option to sort out a 61.75 piggyback licence without visiting the US. Even a simple upgrade from UK PPL to CPL requires a reissue because the pilot licence number changes, and it seems unreasonable that this is a costly and difficult exercise – it should be as straightforward as a change of address.

Where is the dual license requirement?

Residents of the UK must now have a UK licence to fly N-Reg in UK airspace. If they are conducting FAA Flight Reviews, surely they have to be current FAA Flight Instructor? Hence they must have dual papers. Personally, I don’t see the need to have a UK CPL to conduct flight instruction but I’ll leave that up to others to determine.

Last Edited by DavidC at 26 Jun 20:05
FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom

You could argue that anything can be instructed by a suitably qualified FAA instructor outside the USA

Non FAA instructor too; see above. The FAA accepts all non US training. That’s how I did my standalone FAA PPL, in the UK, 2004, with just a few hrs’ flying.

However it does seem excessive to close off the option to sort out a 61.75 piggyback licence without visiting the US.

There is a fair bit of debate as to what led to this. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. I could be a reaction to something that happened… US DPE activity in Europe has a very “colourful” history

Shoreham EGKA, United Kingdom

With help from forum members including @Qalupalik I’ve updated my blog article detailing instruction and checkrides in the UK using N-Reg aircraft. This clarifies Peter’s view that an FAA instructor or examiner need not necessarily hold UK papers (although could be validated through instruction only),and includes a number of references to the relevant legislation.

Broadly speaking, instruction can be given for pretty much anything, although enrolment and approval through the alien flight training program may apply for some aspects.

All DPE activity outside the US for non-US citizens remains suspended at the moment, although the UK’s only fixed wing DPE remains confident the decision will be reversed fairly soon.

Read the article here

Last Edited by DavidC at 19 Jul 08:45
FlyerDavidUK, PPL & IR Instructor
EGBJ, United Kingdom
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